Finding Faith, Losing Sleep Podcast
Finding Faith, Losing Sleep Podcast
Episode 36: Finding Faith in Forgiveness
After a much-needed summer break, Wes returns with Pierre and Michelle to tackle one of the hardest yet most healing spiritual disciplines: forgiveness. From public scandals to personal betrayals, the trio dives deep into what it means to forgive others, ourselves, and even God. With real-life stories, biblical wisdom, and honest reflection, this episode explores how grace, vulnerability, and perspective can free us from emotional prisons. Whether you're struggling with a recent hurt or carrying years of pain, this conversation invites you to flip the switch and start healing.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
It's time to wake up and pray up here again on the Finding Faith in Losing Sleep podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If this is your first time listening to this podcast, we thank you so much for listening. You can go back and download any of the other episodes and whatever listening platform you're listening to the podcast on. Or if you've been here for a long time, we missed you too. So we just appreciate you guys tuning in again and never giving up on us. We have, I am Wes Heasley. And I have with me today the Wilson family, Pierre and Michelle. Say hello, Pierre and Michelle. Hello, Pierre and Michelle. No, don't. No, not like that.
SPEAKER_01:What's funny is we both did it.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. We're ready. We're ready. We've been down and out for a while. And I'm surprised you remember the opening. Like, there's things I'm trying to remember myself here. But we've had some listeners, too. We've averaged. Probably about 20 to 30 every week. That's still probably an old episode. So appreciate those who've been listening to us, following us along, diving in. If you have joined along as we've been on a little hiatus, we appreciate you as well. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Well, here we talk about grace. We talk about grit and occasionally the spiritual insomnia, right? That's what we talk about here. We talk about a lot of different topics. And so that's why I said, if you're just getting used to us, Go back and listen to some of those old podcasts. And if you have any comments about those, you can send them in many different directions. Maybe Pierre remembers where those directions are.
SPEAKER_00:There are a few. We got findingfaith.losingsleep at gmail.com. We're over on the Twitter slash xmachine at findingfaithpod. And if you ever scroll through like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, there should be an option within there. I think within the summary to send us even a text. You want to send us a text or leave us any feedback on any of those platforms as well. And listen,
SPEAKER_02:Michelle, I heard that if they leave a comment, leave a good review or a bad review. I don't know if bad reviews count or not, but it helps the algorithm. Whatever an algorithm is, I need to learn what the definition of an algorithm is. I just keep saying algorithm, and I really don't know what it is. But it helps this show get out into the algorithm sphere a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01:That it does. And I think it helps other people to be able to hear it and to you know connect with us and so um it's not necessarily for us it's for other people because like we said when we started this whole thing if we can reach one person and so thank the lord we've reached at least one so if we can multiply that we want to do that as much as we can because we all know we need people and so we're hoping we can be those people for others
SPEAKER_02:Definitely. And by all means, you know, build me up whenever you leave those comments, just to aggravate Pierre and Michelle a little bit. Like, hell, come on, Wes isn't nothing. No, no. He's
SPEAKER_00:probably few in disguise, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_02:Listen, I wouldn't know how to leave a comment if I had to on those things. This episode tonight is going to be about Forgiveness. We've talked about this a couple of weeks ago of what the next episode was going to be, and it was going to be about forgiveness. I'm not sure, Pierre, what made you or Michelle, because you guys sent me a text about that and said, hey, the next episode is going to be about forgiveness. So I was kind of curious as to why that was on the frontal lobes of your mind.
SPEAKER_01:Well, before he answers you, can I just say that we should probably ask our listeners for some of that since it's been a while since we've recorded this?
SPEAKER_02:We're part-time podcasters.
SPEAKER_01:We
SPEAKER_02:try to put out good content for everybody at the not a convenient time because it, I'm not saying it's not a convenient time, but, um, We love doing this. And sometimes family and life gets in the way of doing this and being able to talk together like this and to be able to record podcasts for the listeners. So, yes, we do expect a little grace here and there about that. And we're sorry for the time that we were off. But summertime, we have some things to do. And I hope you spend time doing those things as well.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And the episode really, it would have been a few weeks back. I think it sparked, you know, through like a men's group, like a Bible study that I went through and just some conversations that took place within that group. And kind of as we approach today, I feel like it still was in the forefront. One big topic that's happening all over social media, I think could be a good starting point. Did you see the, you see the Coldplay clip? At that Coldplay concert?
SPEAKER_02:Who hasn't seen that Coldplay clip? Yes, I saw that with the guy
SPEAKER_00:and the gal. So I just even thinking about that. So obviously it sounded like some type of extramarital, some type of affair was potentially taking place. How do you forgive that? That's forgiveness, right? So let's look at those two and let's start with their spouses. How do you think forgiveness has worked in those households over these last couple of days?
SPEAKER_01:Well, first and foremost, it probably hasn't. At least not yet. Like, maybe. I mean, maybe if somebody's better than me, which some people are, like, maybe they practice that right away. But I think, unfortunately, with us being human, oftentimes those times of forgiveness come further down the line when we have cooler heads and can actually be rational about it and practice faith. I'd love to say that we're all just quick to forgive and do things the way we're supposed to, but when we've been hurt and your pride is hurt, it's really difficult to especially on, I mean, you're talking about a national international potentially level at this point, right? That's, that's huge. So I think it take a little while.
SPEAKER_02:C.S. Lewis said to be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you. And, you know, you think about all the things that we've done recently, Hosea, I think it's Hosea, um, I've been listening to the Bible again this year, and he married a prostitute, right? And it was really to have an example of how many times the Israelite nation, which we would put it as a Christian nation or Christianity or us as an individual, cheated on God. Like a prostitute cannot stay faithful to her husband and goes out and gets pregnant by other people and everything. And it was an example. to those people because everybody got to see that relationship. It was in the forefront, just like the Coldplay thing. It was right there for everybody to see. And they knew what was going on. And God kept telling them to go back, go and get your wife, go and get your wife, even though she was in another man's house. And that was an example of God's love for his people that no matter how many times you go and stray from me, I am gonna still come back can try to get you. And that, hey, God's a bigger man than I am, obviously. But that takes a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00:It does. It does take work. So I know Michelle mentioned pride, which I think is a big piece, a big obstacle for us in human form. But it's tough because you look at Jesus. Was he in human form?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I think so, yeah. So how did he... overcome. And even what did he tell us to do in regards to forgive? I believe it's in Matthew. He gives us a time, like how many times we should forgive someone. You recall what that time is?
SPEAKER_02:70 times
SPEAKER_00:seven, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 70 times seven. And, you know, Michelle just mentioned, like this is one time potentially with this co-play couple and it's already curtains. It seems like, I believe the CEO is, I don't know if it's Astronomer or whatever that company was. I think he lost his job. So even from his employment standpoint, there's no forgiveness there. So what do you feel like are the obstacles for us in forgiving people? Because you often hear, forgive but not forget.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_00:I've said on that a bit, and I feel like that's wrong. Yeah. And I know you don't want to necessarily forget the harm that someone's done to you. But I also believe if you don't forget, are you fully capable of forgiving someone?
SPEAKER_01:Well, first you to forgive, you have to have a level of vulnerability. So if you're not someone who can be vulnerable easily or even if you can, like that's really tough because you have to go beyond yourself to forgive. say, Hey, what you did, I'm not going to allow you to define me anymore. Cause really forgiveness isn't about the other person. Truly. It's not, it's about forgiving yourself because oftentimes it's our identity. Like we forgiveness feels like you're letting go and you're saying it's okay for you to hurt me. And that's, that's really tough. That's a tough pill to swallow, especially like, I don't know about everybody else, but for like me, I was always raised like kind of, or with the belief that once you've broken a trust, like that's really, really difficult to get back. And so, you know, how do you ever trust that person again? Well, it's, I think it's more when, okay, let's go, here's a good example. You go to somebody who's been abused, like maybe physically, mentally, emotionally abused, whatever it might be, or somebody who's been in jail. Why do they go back to that? They go back to that because it's part of their own identity and they protect it because it's a reflection of their own choices and choosing to stay is a choice. So it takes a, enormous amount of strength to be able to walk away from that and find your identity again. Any type of change is hard. So we're, I think as humans, we're naturally resistant to change and forgiveness is a change, whether we look at it that way or not, like being able to wrap your brain around that and fully embrace it and realize that it's for you and not necessarily the other person and not holding yourself to all of that all the time. And choosing to move on and better yourself and then loving that person like God loved them is sometimes, depending on the situation, it feels impossible.
SPEAKER_02:I heard it said that to forgive is to set a prisoner free. Yeah. And then you discover that the prisoner was you.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And I've seen those YouTube videos where people catch monkeys. In like the jungle? I don't know if you guys have ever seen those. Don't ask me what I was looking for, but I found it. I
SPEAKER_00:haven't seen them.
SPEAKER_02:And they put a bait, like a banana or something like that, inside the cage, right? They put it inside the cage. Well, the monkey's too smart to go inside the cage. The monkey reaches through the cage and grabs a banana. And then the people walk up with like a, I don't know, a blanket or something like that or whatever it is, just some big cloth with a hole in it. And they walk up to the monkey. And they just put it over the top of the monkey because the monkey refuses to let go of the banana. And it has all the freedom in the world. The trap didn't catch it. It caught itself out of that pride or out of the greed of maybe not wanting to let go of the banana. But forgiveness is very much like that, where we hold on to it the entire time. And what we don't realize is that it is actually trapping us. What that person has done Yes, it is bad, probably. I would say it's bad. But we are doing something worse to ourselves by not letting it go because we're still harboring those thoughts and we're allowing it to maybe dictate our lives in the future. True forgiveness. is going to help us out so much. Now, I understand what you're saying, Pierre, about forgetting something. And I don't think that we need to forget. I hope a monkey doesn't get caught twice. You know, I hope a monkey doesn't get caught twice. But you can't forget what maybe somebody has done, but you don't necessarily, as what Garth Brooks, the great theologian said, you can bury the hatchet, but leave the handle sticking out, right?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that's not good in a relationship like a husband and wife or something. And you can learn the lesson along the way, but you don't want to be able to just go back and grab that handle whenever you need to or that banana in the cage because it'll trap you again.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so let me ask you this. So do you feel like I... you look at it maybe from somebody who doesn't have a Christian background, who doesn't understand forgiveness maybe as much or hasn't been, hasn't heard it as much, right? Like why forgiveness is important. Wouldn't you feel like, okay, so let's take this scenario. He cheated on me once. Now I forgive him. Isn't that just a free pass to do it again? If I'm just going to forgive you, where's, where is the rationale behind that? Do you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00:I do, but I think, And again, I know we're not supposed to lean on our own understanding, but I feel like that's what we're called to do. I think when you hear His mercies are new every morning, we're given a clean slate. Whether we want to accept that is one thing, but to me, Christ going to the cross and dying for our sins, that wiped it clean. He's not thinking about what we did in our past. We're brand new. So technically, I feel like that should be what we're trying to do here ourselves. If we're truly going to forgive, we should be giving people a clean slate. Yes, there's always going to be the opportunity for them to do you wrong again. We have that ourselves. We have free will. Each day, we have a chance to mess up. But the hope is that we don't and that we are new. So I think that would be the hope that we need to give others when we truly forgive them. And that's why I say the forget part, because I think one of our obstacles, I can't speak for everybody. I'll speak for myself. One of my obstacles in forgiveness is kind of what Michelle said, always in the back of my mind, you remember what happened to you. And there's that, what if that happens again? Whereas if you truly forget or try to forget what took place, I think you're more able to to give someone a free slate. Like, for example, let's say something happened. You get amnesia. It'd be a lot easier to forgive someone if you never knew that anything happened. If you don't remember that something took place, it's a lot easier to forgive in that situation, don't you think? That's a great point, yeah. I was just going to say, so part of this in our men's group that came up is one of the men, I won't mention her name, had a daughter a long time ago that was raped. Obviously, the first thought when that happens to your daughter is, I'll kill them. That's the first thing that's going to go through your head is, I'll kill them. Some of those thoughts ran through this person's head. I'm going to find this person and do some harm to them. As time passed, they saw just the impact of that it had on the daughter itself to continue to bring up that memory and, you know, bring up, you know, what's going to happen. It wasn't let her forget what took place. And so in order to kind of release his daughter from what happened to her, you know, he forgave that person. And it was interesting, his definition, he gave a definition of forgiveness for him. He said, forgiveness is voluntarily forgiveness Accepting the consequences of someone else's sin, which I really sat on. And when you think about that, that's what took place. You can look at Coldplay. That situation, their spouses would have to voluntarily on their own accept the consequences of what their significant others did. He had to accept the consequences of what the guy did to his daughter. And I think we have a hard time accepting that. of someone else's sins. And that's exactly what Jesus did for all of us.
SPEAKER_02:Me personally. I don't think that forgiveness means that that wife has to stay in that relationship with the Coldplay thing that's going on, right?
SPEAKER_01:You can still forgive and not be there. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And that... It's going to depend on different circumstances that was going on. And listen, what you said about that man and his daughter and accepting the consequences for sins, it makes a lot of sense because you actually, you have to kind of step out of denial of what happened, which might get you past the anger part of things. Because like you said, that'd be the first reaction I had too. I want to go find this guy and take care of business myself. Forget about the police. Forget about all that stuff. I'll handle it. One of the reasons why is because I wouldn't want to even think about the actions that occurred. You know what I mean? That would help me not have to think about the actions that actually occurred. You have to take on that sin. You have to take on those thoughts to be able to put that stuff behind you. That's something. It's hard to imagine going through that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and then on the flip side, you think about forgiving yourself, like, for things that you have done. And those, for me, sometimes that's harder than forgiving someone else. Like, I, at least in my brain, I go from I made a mistake to I am a mistake. And so then it becomes part of my identity. And that's difficult. like that's difficult for me to reconcile. Maybe it's because I'm a woman and everything's attached to everything in my brain. Like I don't, maybe men can compartmentalize it better, but for me, memories and things are attached to one another. And so when I failed here, now I'm a failure everywhere because it's all attached. Like it all is connected. And so I think that's what, at least for me, makes self-forgiveness ridiculously difficult. I don't know for you guys.
SPEAKER_02:Pierre, I'm not sure. I was thinking of a question, Michelle, when you were talking.
SPEAKER_00:It would be tough. Even in parenthood, there's things that I'll lash out or I've lashed out in the past or I'll say something that I regret and that sits with me. about how I handle things. You sit there and once you have time to reflect, once you're out of the situation, you're always like, I could have done that better. Then you're kicking yourself and wondering why you did that in the first place. I think it's natural to get down on yourself after you've done something wrong. Whether you realize you did something wrong or not, I think Forgiving yourself is just an obstacle because I think we're always harder on ourselves than anyone else. And, you know, for those that like go to counseling or therapy, oftentimes it starts with you. Like you go in there and you're thinking everyone else is the problem and, you know, they lay you on the couch and, you know, start opening up and, you know, it's something within you that's causing it all. Maybe a memory or a past, you know, And so it's hard. And you think about, again, being forgiven. But can you forgive yourself? I don't know if you've seen like Tombstone. You ever seen Tombstone, the movie?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. Huckleberry.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. So I believe it's Doc Holliday's character, rest in peace, Val Kilmer. I don't remember who he's talking to, but they're talking about Wyatt Earp once he's like out for the revenge. I got those brothers and stuff get killed, etc., Someone asked Doc Holliday, what's he out for revenge for? His response for why it hurts revenge was being born. You think about that with some people, that's the case. They've been a rough life, rough upbringing, and they're just so upset with life that it's hard to forgive themselves and how they were treated. It's hard to forgive their parents maybe and how they were treated when they were younger because And honestly, there's times where I'm sure people have a hard time forgiving God. Like there's times where, you know, God gets blamed for tragedies that happen in our lives. And you look at the flip side, we just talked about all the forgiveness that he gives us, but then it often returned. Like if something tragic happens or something unexpected, like people hold onto that. And even those that maybe no longer believe in God, there was maybe a point where they did believe in God. And the reason that they don't anymore is It's because they haven't forgiven him for something that maybe he didn't do, something maybe he didn't have a part of, but they're just holding on to that, of the character that they believe God is, that they're unable to forgive not only themselves, but also God himself.
SPEAKER_01:And lay blame, gives some place to lay blame to when there's nothing else, maybe. So what do you guys think about, like, do you think that we inherit, like, emotional habits?
SPEAKER_02:I think we're, we become accustomed to them and we get programmed that way because we see the emotional habits of our parents or our siblings or people that are close to us. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. I think that's the very thing. And so people, you would argue like that's how you get your faith is because you're, you're surrounded by other people of faith. Otherwise you wouldn't have faith, which I think you can argue against, but there's, there's definitely things that you learn from, from your elders growing up. Like, often talk about the race cars. Obviously, we're an interracial couple, but you never see a baby who's racist. You never see little kids, unless they've been programmed or taught to act a certain way, they're always friendly with everyone up until they're told not to be. I think we do. We grow up in our own different cultures, our own backgrounds, and we're taught different things, and we witness different things, and that's how we just assume that things should be handled. All right.
SPEAKER_02:So we did a good job, I think, of telling people why we should forgive, the things that we should forgive, maybe, you know, like that. If we didn't, if you still have questions about it, you can backtrack and listen to all. We'll say it again at the end of the episode of how you can contact us. But I want to put some actionable things in here before the end of the show. How do you forgive? Like, what are some steps that you can take to forgive? Because I look at forgiveness and I look at all the things that could have happened to us and how we can harbor those ill feelings towards others and not forgive them. And we can just carry those burdens around with us all the time. But we got to kind of flip that switch. And yes, things happen to us. But we can flip a switch kind of like Joseph did back in the book of Genesis. where he says, you intended to harm me, talking to his brothers who sold him into slavery, told his father that he was dead and that some wild animals must have got him, took his coat to his dad, you know, and said, he's gone. Sorry. And then Joseph ended up becoming one of the most powerful men in Egypt at the time. He told his brothers when he had an opportunity to put vengeance on them, he could have just said the word and all his brothers would have been dead. But instead he told his brothers, you intended to harm me, but God intended it for my good. Now that is a forgiveness with a perspective, right? He was able to say what happened to me by people. It happened. But God put me in a position here to feed my family. God put me in position here to save, I don't know, millions of people that were going to starve to death if Joseph didn't have the wisdom that he had to be able to take care of them all in the position that he attained because his brother sold him into slavery. So that's a tremendous perspective. So I think in order to do that, I know for me, one of the great healing things I ever had helped me forgive a lot of things that happened to me in my past was becoming a leader and sharing my hurts sharing my habits sharing my struggles that that came from not being able to forgive people with others in a leader and i was in a leadership role and sharing those things with them and and seeing their lives get turned around because they saw how i was able to handle it and then they had like whoa if if that silly guy wes can do it Surely I can handle those things too. And I can put some of these practices in play in my life and overcome some of these things. So for me, when I look at action ability, one of those things is to talk about it. Maybe with a counselor first to get healing a little bit or with somebody you trust to get some healing about it. And then to share that with people that are hurting themselves so that you can walk them through that grieving process. What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_01:I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head because when, I'm sure Pierre would agree, we haven't talked about it for a while, but when our life group, at least for me, was healing because not only were we sharing our personal things and we did a thing called Brooded and that was amazing, but we heard their things and then we could see how working on those things together, how some of those things came to fruition and it was amazing. And so I think you're right, Wes, that giving it, not giving it power, right? When you talk about it, you're taking away its power because you're not just, you know, burying it down deep within you. But the first thing I would say is I think that I wrote down some things earlier when I was taught, when Pierre told me what this one was going to be. And what I wrote was it's the quiet act of choosing peace over pride, healing over hurting and growth over grudges. And like, I think that humans forgive what wounds us and God forgives what violates moral law, but both forms of that, require the same sacrifice. So we have to let go of justice to embrace grace.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's great points. Great
SPEAKER_00:points. Pierre? Yeah, so I think about who are we most likely to forgive in our lives?
SPEAKER_01:Probably the people that aren't as close to us.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's our kids, personally. Well, I see that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:And who are we to God?
SPEAKER_01:It's children.
SPEAKER_00:It's children. So in order for me to, I think, put that in perspective, I think we got to see everybody like that. As God's children, even as our kids, our kids are someone, even if you just want to go earthly, like they're earthly children and you got to really put that in perspective. I saw something that said like adults are basically just, it's all eight year olds and adult bodies. And sometimes I think we act that way, but. often look at, you know, some of the things my daughter does. She's a really good kid, actually, and doesn't really get in trouble often. But when she does, she's just easy to forgive because that's my kid. You look at the prodigal son in that story that took place. His father, you know, ran to him, forgave him instantly, you know, served a feast to the point where his brother got jealous because his brother didn't have that same forgiveness as a dad. So I think the The action to take is to try to take that parenthood-type figure to people in our lives and really see them as children, if not your own children, then children of God, and kind of keep that in perspective to forgive as God forgives His children. If we're called to lift up our cross daily, we say that Christ lives within us, the Holy Spirit is an advocate here to help us, then we have all the things we need to give that same type of forgiveness that God did to the point that he not only loved us as children, again, he gave his only son to us for our own sins, our own consequences. Abraham was willing to do that. I think that's the reason we have this whole promise anyways, that Abraham didn't take Isaac up on the mountain and wasn't willing to go through with it, would God have been willing to give his son? We don't know. Thankfully, Abraham did that. So my action is just kind of that second commandment to love your neighbors like yourself. I feel like that really jumps out for a reason to me all the time. And in order to forgive, I think we got to take that mentality to really accept that person in front of us as someone deserving of forgiveness, just like God says they are.
SPEAKER_01:And it's probably not a one-time thing. Absolutely not. You have to... Do that multiple times, depending on what the transgression was, right? And like just refusing to be chained to it.
SPEAKER_02:So many good quotes. I got so many good quotes about this stuff and it applies to everything we've said. And we're wrapping up the episode here now, guys. Martin Luther King Jr. said, forgiveness is not an occasional act. It is a permanent attitude. Like you said there, Michelle. And Nelson Mandela said, resentment is like drinking poison. and then hoping it will kill your enemies. It just doesn't make sense, does it? And, of course, Jesus said in Matthew 5, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, which is easier said than done. Like if somebody puts a bump on your car trying to park, maybe you can forgive that person and pray for their parking skills. I don't know how you do that. That's just something that maybe you can do in trying to practice those things. Whether it's trying to forgive your neighbor or maybe your ex or yourself, just remember that grace is a gift that you give twice. You give it to that person and then you also give it to yourself. So that's a wonderful thing to be able to do. If you have any other thoughts about forgiveness or anything we said, if you need to correct us on anything or you feel like you're led to correct us or input, we'd love to hear your input, no matter what it is. Pierre, tell them how to get in touch with us again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, findingfaith.losingsleep at gmail.com, over on at findingfaithpod on x slash Twitter, and any other platforms. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio. Leave us a comment, leave us a review, or send a text through our summary of our podcast description.
SPEAKER_02:That sounds good. It sounds like a great plan. And, you know, just go forth, everybody. Forgive boldly and sleep peacefully because bitterness is a terrible bedtime story. Thank you all for joining us and you pray for us and we'll pray for you.