Finding Faith, Losing Sleep Podcast
Finding Faith, Losing Sleep Podcast
Episode 31: Faith, Healing, and the Complex Journey of Spiritual Wealth
Can traditional interpretations of the Bible stand up to modern questions of faith? Join us on this episode of Finding Faith and Losing Sleep as we unravel the teachings of the Book of Ephesians, inspired by our listener, Travis. Together we explore the nuances of spiritual practices, the complexities of faith healing, and the often controversial interplay between wealth and piety, all while marveling at our unexpected popularity in places like Laos.
We dive deep into the historical and spiritual significance of the Holy Spirit, its gifts, and the importance of unity as preached in Ephesians. By challenging the conventional attributions of biblical authorship, such as the possibility of Apollos being the author of Hebrews, we emphasize the need for open-mindedness and humility in today's faith discussions. Michelle provides heartfelt reflections on contributing to our mission of spreading God's word without seeking financial gain, reinforcing the community spirit we cherish so deeply.
From confronting the exploitative practices of the prosperity gospel to recounting transformative personal anecdotes about tithing and blessings, our conversations are both poignant and eye-opening. We also touch on the importance of renouncing sin and embracing righteousness, inspired by the dramatic story of the seven sons of Sceva. As we prepare to journey further into the teachings of the Book of Ephesians, we invite you, our cherished listeners, to engage with us through comments and reviews, helping us build a stronger, faith-filled community together.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
It's time to wake up and pray up here on the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep podcast. Thank you so much for joining us for another edition, following up on our last edition, where we talked about going over the book of Ephesians this time. And, pierre and Michelle, I just got to tell you this is for my buddy, travis. Travis asked me to go over the book of Ephesians and so I'm going over the book of Ephesians and this is for you. Travis, appreciate you tuning in and listening. And, michelle and Pierre, I appreciate you being on the podcast with me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, we're kind of a part of this thing too. I think I may have came up with the idea, but I mean, who's to say?
Speaker 1:But glad to be here, Wes? What do you mean? Did I just make it sound like it was my idea?
Speaker 2:I mean a little bit, but we're team players in the Wilson household. So I don't know what we're doing individually over there with the Easleys.
Speaker 1:It's all individualistic. Hey, michelle, I know you're there with Pierre. Michelle and Pierre are a couple. They are a married couple as a matter of fact, so it always brings a unique perspective into things. Here, I think on a podcast, and yes, this is a group environment here and you are a part of that group as well if you are a listener. We appreciate you listening, we appreciate you downloading, we appreciate the sharing.
Speaker 2:And Pierre, I think what in Zimbabwe or something like that, that we've got a bunch of listeners now? Oh, louse, that's it. Louse, a l-a-l-a-o. Louse, I believe. Sorry if I mispronounced it, but yeah, we were really ranked like number three for a while there and I don't know what's going on. But I appreciate whoever's tuning in and whoever's sharing over there. We're still ranked. We came down a bit because we, you know busy lives, you know some some things just going on. Personally a bit hard to get behind a microphone, but we're here this evening and we're ready to get after it. But thanks to yeah, thanks to the owls over there taking a listen.
Speaker 3:We'll take Zimbabwe too. Come on, come on along.
Speaker 1:Come on Zimbabwe. Michelle. What do you think about this, about us not getting paid to do this? I don't know what you thought about it from a women's perspective. I always think that women want to get money and go shopping and stuff. Do you think it's okay that we're not getting paid for any of this, that we're just doing this out of the generosity of our hearts?
Speaker 3:I mean, you're not wrong, wes, but no, I don't conversations that Pierre and I personally have had and you know that we've had, we've we've known you for a while, so we've had some of these conversations with you and it was just kind of the thing that was born of like, hey, maybe somebody else could get something out of this, because we can't be the only people that think this right. So to charge people for our thoughts and our feelings, just kind of talking things out, it seems a little odd when you're doing, hopefully, something for God, right, that's, the whole idea is to get out God's word to people and to touch them and to try to help others along.
Speaker 1:So no, I don't think we should be paid for it. What kind of sponsors would we even get on this show? Peter, with all the different topics that we talk about, I'm just trying to think of who would want to sponsor such a thing, and not that we're after sponsors. Don't misunderstand me if you're just kind of spacing out and then you just heard what I said. We're not looking for sponsors or anything like that. But I mean, we cover such a gamut of topics. I don't know who would want to sponsor us. I don't know who would want to sponsor us.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you, what we've mostly received are different podcasts just wanting to kind of advertise themselves on ours, a lot of it coming from a faith base, and I know that can sometimes be hard to find a podcast that you feel comfortable promoting your own material on, because you don't want, you know, really, listeners that are going to come in from, perhaps, a podcast that's not faith based or not even considering faith, and all of a sudden you know they're, they're in your comments and they're just bashing you and talking down to you. So what we tend to get are either podcast startups or some that are trying to get a foothold that feel like we have a pretty good listenership, if that's a word, and they're just trying to promote themselves and, you know, just put their own commercials and stuff within our podcast in order and hopes of getting their stuff out a little bit further.
Speaker 1:Well, by all means, try to contact us. I'd be happy to maybe even, if time permits, to come back to go on a show that is not our own podcast. We could possibly do that, or I could do that, pierre could do that, michelle might want to do that, I don't know. But you could contact us. Findingfaithlosingsleepsomethingnetorg right.
Speaker 2:Close Findingfaith. Losingsleep at gmailcom. We'll be through email and then over on Twitter. Slash X. We're at FindingFaithPod if you want to reach out over there as well.
Speaker 1:The best way to do it, though, is to just leave a comment. I want to leave whatever listening platform you like to listen to the show on. That's a great way to do it, easy to click on right there. Plus, if you're doing that, it takes look, it takes 10 seconds Takes 10 seconds just to leave a rating or leave a review. That'd be awesome for the podcast, not because we want the accolades, like we just talked about for a little while, but just to get the word out there a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Maybe it will find its way into somebody's feed who is hurting this time of year. Because you know how the phones are, you know how computers are, you know all those things. They find out what you're looking for, they hear in my opinion, they listen to your conversations anyway, so if you're like having a down day and you're telling somebody, oh, I'm just having a down day, I don't know what to do, then all of a sudden, the algorithm will grab a hold of your conversation. Throw the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep podcast in there because you left a review, because you left a comment. It'll throw it into somebody's phone and suggest that they listen to it, they download it and play it and maybe it'll uplift their day. Maybe it won't, maybe it'll make them even more depressed, I don't know, but you have a part in that.
Speaker 2:So in addition, we have a new feature.
Speaker 1:If you're in an episode, you can also send us a text.
Speaker 2:I know it's on Apple Podcasts, but if you're looking at it it's there. If you click more and look at the description of each episode, there's a send us a text feature so you can quickly send us a voice message, or something, too, that should come to us. To who? Probably Pierre, that should come to us. To who. Probably. Pierre To our account where we're hosted at for our podcast.
Speaker 1:Michelle, I have got a new goal in life and that is to blow up Pierre's text message feeds with messages and everything. Just to blow that phone up.
Speaker 3:I now have got a new agenda in life. Game thing Wes.
Speaker 1:Here we go, buckle up buttercups. We're over to Ephesians. Like I said my buddy Travis. He asked if we could do this. He was very interested in the book of Ephesians. So that's where we are. And do you guys have a map, like in the back of your Bible? I asked you guys to bring your Bibles tonight and there will be a lot of Bible stuff tonight. So just listeners beware. But that's okay For the people who are just tuning in for the first time. It's not like a Bible class here. It is, but it's not. People say that we're just like friends talking over having coffee at each other's house and we're around a coffee table and we're just talking about these things. So that's the kind of environment that we want to bring. Plus, none of us are scholars and none of us are theologians. I'm a hillbilly and then I got a couple of Yankees on the other end.
Speaker 2:We're trying to work life out.
Speaker 1:So you got a map down there. You guys got a map where you are.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:So no maps. Well, there's a scratch off the first one. Anyway, ephesians, right back there in the back of your maps, it's kind of towards the top of where the apostles got started and it was a big city. A big city where a lot of people came to, a very popular city, and when we have those kind of places, it is a great place for the gospel to be pushed out into all the areas of the world, for the gospel to be pushed out into all the areas of the world, and that's why Ephesians is a very key area of the world to be able to have that done, because there were so many Gentiles there, there were Jews there, and so the gospel is just going to start spreading after it hits. Ephesus is what it's going to do.
Speaker 2:That's just south of.
Speaker 1:Turkey right, Do what Just south of Turkey?
Speaker 2:I don't know the only thing I like south of Turkey is right.
Speaker 1:Do what Just south of Turkey? I don't know. The only thing I like south of Turkey is dressing.
Speaker 2:That's all. I Pretty sure on the map it's south of Turkey.
Speaker 1:I don't believe in new maps, Pierre. I just look at the old school maps.
Speaker 2:Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Okay, is that all right? Is that funny? No, it's fine.
Speaker 1:To have context about the Book of ephesians, you got to go back to the book of acts and kind of gets where it all started, all right. So we're going to go back to acts. Acts, chapter 19 is where you kind of want to go in your bible. If you're driving, please don't go there, just listen, just listen. If you're at home, you can follow along if you want to. If not, just just listen. We're going to actually back up here, michelle, to Acts, chapter 18. Acts 18, verse 23,. Verse Michael Jordan here, and either Pierre or Michelle, if one of you two want to start reading right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 1823, after spending some time in Antioch, Paul set out from there and traveled from place to place throughout the region of Galatia, to a word I can't pronounce, strengthening all the disciples. Meanwhile, a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man with a thorough knowledge of scriptures.
Speaker 1:People tell me that all the time about myself. Well, there goes Wes Apollos Jr, a man very versed in the scriptures and a man who is eloquent in speech. Okay, apollos never gets to me the credit, like you could gloss over this. But how many people do we have in the Bible where it talks about somebody and gives him like credit, like that, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures? Isn't that something that that you kind of want to be known for? You know what I mean. Like that just sounds so cool.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean especially, just like passing by. Like that's like your description. I like that, I like your description. I know this is the Bible, one and only Bible. But it'd be nice to be mentioned in the Bible as a learned man or a learned woman that was well-versed with knowledge of scriptures. Even with our own little journey, I still can't say that about myself.
Speaker 1:How would we translate mighty in the scriptures in today's vernacular? If you're ever talking about a guy, mighty in the scriptures is just not something that would come out of your mouth. How would you say it today?
Speaker 2:Like a set of like thorough in the scriptures, as you're saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, mighty.
Speaker 1:I'd say that dude knows his Bible. You know, that's kind of.
Speaker 2:Well-versed, I think would be a good one.
Speaker 1:Wise, wise, that's good. Get Pierre a call.
Speaker 3:Pierre is very well-versed in the Bible.
Speaker 2:I'm going to start writing that and the phone number down on bathroom walls all across America.
Speaker 1:Pierre, so you can get text messages. I don't know if I want to get those type of text messages. Do you guys know who wrote the book of Hebrews? People will say that it is Paul, because Paul writes a majority of the New Testament of course.
Speaker 2:I think that is actually Apollos.
Speaker 1:It could be Apollos. If you read some things that people, we don't know who, it is 100% and I would like to think and it's just because of this one little verse, I would like to think that it was Apollos In my mind. I'm not saying it is and I don't have any evidence to prove that it is. It's just a desire of mine that I would love for it to be Apollos, that's all.
Speaker 2:That's possible.
Speaker 1:All right, keep going 25, please.
Speaker 2:He had been instructed in the way of the lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of john. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When priscilla and aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of god more adequately. When Apollos wanted to go to Acacia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who, by the grace, had believed, for he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.
Speaker 1:There you go. There's Apollos right there. I had to take a moment out just to do Apollos right, Because it's so cool to see that guy mighty in the scriptures. And then he was teaching everything he knew, which was just the baptism of John, which was for the coming of Christ. And then, when he learned about the coming of Christ, this was a man that had such an open mind, able to think, that he didn't say, ah, that Jesus guy, yeah, I don't believe in that. I know what it is. I know it's John the Baptist, that's what I'm preaching, that's what I'm going to teach.
Speaker 1:And he was humble enough to receive new teachings or a completed John the Baptist teaching right, who was always preaching the coming of Christ. And so he received that teaching. Then he passed it along to other people as well, and I love how it says that he was. He publicly refuted the people and you know, back in the day, that's what they did. They didn't turn on the TV, they had a lot of time to go out in the square, the town square, and to talk about these things. Talk about things that matter, just like the three of us are doing, and just like I'm sure our listeners do as well with other people. I love that we have an opportunity in life to be able to spread the knowledge that we have, whether it's about the Bible or whether it's about other things. To spread it to other people, because that's what we're called to do, and I think we see Apollos doing that.
Speaker 2:I agree, I like the public debate. Thought, because I didn't watch the presidential debate, I don't care, but I really do dive into a lot of religious type of debates. I'll go Christianity versus atheist. I like to get that back and forth. I just like to hear both sides and the evidence that's presented, kind of how they maintain themselves and whether they're letting someone else speak and, you know, let someone get their point across and things on those lines. So I really like just to imagine you know, apollo's just going like town to town and just publicly debating against non-believers or Jewish non-believers, and just how the crowds can get all you know amped up and applauding and things along those lines. It's just nice to imagine for me.
Speaker 1:Michelle, I don't know if you know that Luke wrote the book Acts, right? A doctor, a smart guy and he's writing down these acts like a historical document, and you can see that by how he mentions the people's names, the cities they go to, the people they run into. I mean, he's very specific with all of these details, right? And then you'll hear him come and go out of the story. You'll see him say they went here, but you'll also see him say, like we went here to these places. It's so important to have this history for us, because these aren't artifacts that are being dug up. This is historical documents that we have in our hands about the acts of the apostles, right? I don't know if you knew that.
Speaker 3:I didn't. But you know, what I was going to say is I appreciate the way he does that, because I'm a detail person, and I think it probably drives Pierre a little crazy sometimes because, like, if I'm telling a story, I have to tell you all the details, and my mother gets frustrated with me too. She's like just cut to the chase, tell me what you're trying to tell me. But I think in this purpose it's important, right, like that's how we hold on to history, and so I personally can appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Verse 1, chapter 19 of the book of Acts. And it came about that while Apollos was at Corinth, paul, having passed through the upper country, came to Ephesus and found some disciples Just found disciples. Hey, I found some disciples. And he said to them did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they said to him no, we haven't even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And he said well then, what were you baptized? And they said into John's baptism. And Paul said John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling people to believe in him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus. And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying, and they were all about 12 in all people.
Speaker 1:Now here's the question, as we go through this and dissect this little part in verse 19. And, by the way, we're going to talk about Ephesians in a minute, but we are talking about Ephesians because Paul, this is the story of Paul going to Ephesus. So it's a good little background, right. And it's kind of cool how the Bible correlates with one another and I never pieced that together until I went through some class at church, and it was the New Testament survey class, and these pieces of the puzzle started going together a little bit more and I was like, oh, that's where that fits in. And so it was. Just, I don't know. It was fascinating to me that the book of Ephesians I could actually look in the book of Acts to see where this all took place and where the relationship began. All right, so a couple things here. One and we talked about it a little bit John's baptism. It wasn't the final baptism, but it was a necessary baptism, you think, pierre?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean mean, from from the beginning it felt like it was a, it's like a preparation, and I think that was was john's whole ordeal was, uh, prepared away. You know, he always spoke about preparing the way for the messiah and I think part of that was with the baptism as well. It wasn't the the final baptism, but it was a baptism to prepare the way for the baptism that was coming, is my feeling on it.
Speaker 1:Michelle, do you think those people should have been baptized in the baptism of John?
Speaker 3:I do why? I mean, well, because if you think about it, that's really all they had at that point, right? So they're still professing their faith and like, if that's what you have, and that's what you know, they couldn't do anything else until later, right?
Speaker 1:You do what you know Right, and that's what we do, and we try to do it to our best of abilities. We may only know so much about God, but if we're trying to do our best of our ability about God or with God, and obey the commands that we have, then guess what we're doing, what we should do. But here's the thing when you learn something new, you do it too. And when they were told that, hey, so just John, let me tell you about Jesus's baptism. And when they found out about Jesus's baptism, they were baptized. They did what they knew to do and what was right. They were trying to follow God with all their heart, all their soul, all their might, all their strength and the knowledge followed with it.
Speaker 1:And there may be people who are listening, and myself included, who is talking. I don't listen to myself, though. You do what you know to do, and whether it's a podcast, whether it's a preacher, whether it's the Bible yourself that you're reading yourself, if you find something new to do something new, you should stop doing. You do it and you apply it, and it'll make you closer to God. And that's what happened with these men at Ephesus, these disciples. It was interesting to me that they were called disciples beforehand, right Because they were following God, and it's also going to set up a little bit more whenever we start reading the book of Ephesus or Ephesians, I'm sorry, whenever we start reading the book of Ephesians, because there's a one-body theme that goes through the book of Ephesians, a unity theme that goes through the book of Ephesians, and I find it interesting that Paul calls these men or people disciples before they actually became disciples in Christ, because they were following God and they were disciples of.
Speaker 2:God, like there's folks that are going to church still, that aren't baptized, but they believe, and they're spreading that belief to others and leading them to believe. So, wouldn't that still be the definition of a disciple? I believe so. Yeah, I do too, and what's really interesting is so they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirit Then, once Paul placed his hands on them, you know baptized them in the name of Jesus.
Speaker 1:The Holy Spirit came on them, which is really interesting to me, because when you think of the Holy Spirit Wes, what do you think of? Part?
Speaker 2:of the Trinity. That's what I think of. That's my first one. Okay, and so with part of the Trinity, when you imagine the Holy Spirit, do you imagine it as a spirit, as a man, as a woman? What do you imagine the Holy Spirit as?
Speaker 1:Something that I cannot see, that lives inside of me. It's probably from some childhood song or something.
Speaker 2:I find it interesting because you look, I think it's back in John, I want to say it's 1426. It's kind of a definition. It says but the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name I believe these are red letters he will teach you all the things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. So, with that description that Jesus gives, it says the Holy Spirit is a he and I honestly hadn't ever thought of it that way until I kind of reread that verse going through some other Bible reading that I was doing, and then you come back to this in Acts 19, and it says the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues. So it's almost like he showed up.
Speaker 2:And I just try to again. I'm a person that tries to imagine. I try to imagine, like now, what the Holy Spirit truly is and looks like when you recognize his appearance, Because we've always talked about, you know, being a gut feeling and things along those lines, which I think is true. But it could be like an unseen physical type of presence that we're unaware of, and I honestly hadn't thought of it that way.
Speaker 1:Yes and yes and probably no. I don't know what it is completely. You know what I mean. It's one of those things, and maybe we just don't know the spiritual world because we're in the physical world so we can't necessarily see it nor explain it. But this is kind of what I do know. How did they get the Holy Spirit, Michelle?
Speaker 3:Say that one more time how did how After. After they were baptized and laid laid his hands on him. Is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 1:there you go. Okay. So I, I, when I look at the bible, when I look at the book of acts, now, the day of pentecost, in acts, chapter 2, the holy spirit came on the apostles and they had like tongues of fire sitting on their head and they started speaking in tongues, right and different things. And then those apostles if you start looking at the I don't know just the pattern that's developed throughout the book of Acts the Holy Spirit is passed on by the laying on of those apostles' hands. Now you say, well, wes, paul wasn't in that crowd, because Paul became an apostle later with the road to Damascus and everything. I'll say, okay, you got me on that one. But Paul also talks about being an apostle as one untimely, born away from those other men. So when he talks about that he is. I think he is just as much of an apostle as those other men and we'll see the reason why he has the Holy Spirit. Because we don't.
Speaker 1:The apostles just had like every trick in the book. If we're going to say the Holy Spirit was a trick you know what I mean Like for show or something like that. They could heal the sick, they could speak in tongues, they could prophesy. They could pass along the gift of the Holy Spirit to other people. Just so many things that they could do where other people were imparted, just like one specific gift. It looks like, if you ask me, somebody might get the gift of interpretation of a tongue. Somebody else may get the ability to be able to speak in tongues from the Holy Spirit. Somebody else may get the ability to be able to speak in tongues from the Holy Spirit. Somebody else may get the gift of prophecy, somebody else may get the gift of different gifts and that's another theme through the book of Ephesians.
Speaker 2:It is, and I don't think there's a wrong gift either. So just because the, so just because the apostles have the appearance of so much more power, I don't feel made them more or less than anyone that maybe only had one gift. Is that one gift was, I feel, still as important.
Speaker 1:as as the other, revisiting what you said, I think if somebody refuses to be baptized, then they're treading or not treading on dangerous water there. Like if you think that you should be baptized but you refuse to do so for whatever reason, then I'm glad that ain't me, even though I probably refuse to follow some of God's commands for selfish reasons myself. That'd just be one of those things. Whatever it is that's put in front of you from God's commands, I think is something that we all should try and obey to our utmost ability. And if baptism is one of those things, I think that somebody should be baptized.
Speaker 3:I agree, because I've always said, like when you know you hear somebody say, oh, I know God wants me to do this, but I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to go do this, I'm like, oh, that's a bad idea.
Speaker 2:Our pastor always says delayed obedience is still disobedience.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, michelle, you feel like reading starting in verse 8, maybe 8 through 10?
Speaker 3:In Acts, as I was talking about.
Speaker 1:Yes, ma'am, acts 19.
Speaker 3:Yep, just making sure I was on the right spot. Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate. They refused to believe and publicly maligned the way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. This went for two years so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
Speaker 1:A long time. That is a long time. He's been in this place. A long time two years, a couple months, probably a little bit longer than that and interesting that he's debating these people. And how did the people become, pierre? Some of the people, not all the people, of course.
Speaker 2:How did they become what Like?
Speaker 1:awesome yeah, yeah, oh their hearts got hardened, disobedient, yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is interesting, because what's the next line? Say they refuse to believe, probably behind the way. And what did Paul do?
Speaker 1:He left.
Speaker 2:He just left. I feel like we go to the turn of the other cheek as part of the Sermon on the Mount, when that took place there. I think that's part of the Sermon on the Mount, or when that took place there, and I think that's part of it. Like, whenever there is the potential of hostility or being rejected, jesus always seemed to respond with just move on, brush your feet, brush your hands, move on to the next place, just leave. Brush your feet, brush your hands, move on to the next place, just leave. Really, avoid conflict and confrontation for those that just refuse. I feel like we really struggle with that today. I don't know if it's us just being prideful ourselves or being stubborn, but we always try to hammer home our point. That's not what Jesus said to do. He said to turn the other cheek or to pick up your mat, walk away, etc. And so I think we got to get better at that, because we do.
Speaker 2:We want to share the good news that we have right, and it's important to do so. If we feel like we have the cure, you want to share that cure. But at the same time, if someone doesn't want to take the medicine, you can't force it down their throats. They're just going to get more irritated and more upset. You just got to walk away and, you know, hopefully another guy uses someone else to come back in their life at a different time, before it's too late for them to try again.
Speaker 3:Well, and often that'll force them to stand their ground even more right. Like you said, the facts are typically 99% of the time.
Speaker 1:We're not going to change their opinion anyway, and they're not going to change ours, so yeah, well, it says that he talked in the synagogues for about three months, right, and he reasoned and persuaded them about the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:So he didn't just okay, he didn't hear me this time and left. I don't know what the circumstances were, maybe they allowed him to have a platform for three months and then at some point he was like, okay, these guys are starting to get ill with me. I'm hearing that they're talking bad about the way, and that's where Christian is or Christian-um, I guess, is whenever it talks about the way here in the book of Acts and he's like, okay, this just ain't working anymore, right, we're kind of doing more harm than good guys. So that's when they packed up their bags and left, and I think we can all be wise to know when that time is and when we can't speak about these things anymore. Um, I've been speaking, I've spoken, spoken to a million people I don't know a million, I exaggerate sometimes uh, spoken, spoken to a lot of people, and you kind of just get that feeling like, okay, they don't want to hear what I'm saying anymore, you know no, it happens in workplaces.
Speaker 2:You see it with coaches like so, like sports coaches. Every once in a while. You know, the team just gets tired of hearing that voice. They need to, they need to hear it from someone else and whether they get fired or they have to step down. You know, sometimes your point just doesn't get across any longer. So why keep forcing?
Speaker 1:it, verse 11, and God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that the handkerchiefs, or aprons, were even carried from his body to the sick and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. Wow yeah.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:I bet you those would go for quite a bit on eBay eBay well, I'm glad you said that because, let me point this out, it doesn't say anything about the disciples, right, that he was with, that they could do this where some part of his clothing could go heal, some part of their clothing could go heal somebody. This is Paul, the Apostle Paul and I have watched televangelists before and I don't think they're as prevalent as they used to be would sell like an anointing oil or would pray over their handkerchiefs and will be glad to send it to people for X amount of dollars, right, or your donations and stuff. Yeah, please be careful with all that stuff. I don't want to douse anybody's dreams and I don't want to say somebody can't do that. I don't know. The only time I see an example of that is right here, and it's the Apostle Paul.
Speaker 1:And the Bible tells us in verse 11, extraordinary miracles were happening by the hands of the Apostle Paul. Extraordinary, I mean it kind of makes it sound like it's like even Luke is going holy cow. I can't believe this, you know. I mean just like he is in awe of some of these things that are going on. And God has this time and place for this to make these people, to help these people around the Ephesus area to become believers, right? That's what's going on. That's what's going on. God allows these miracles to happen to give proof that what these men are saying the apostles or whoever are saying this is proof, what they're saying is real, and the power not only can come from their body to heal people, but also the words can heal people. So this is extraordinary miracles happening at an extraordinary time in a place of Ephesus that was extraordinarily wealthy and primed for sending out the gospel, and I think that that's what this is all about.
Speaker 2:Me personally, Do you still believe that happens today?
Speaker 1:No, that moment of silence was me trying to let Michelle talk.
Speaker 3:Um, I think it could, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe Through the laying on the apostles hands or through an apostle working that miracle. I, I don't, but, pierre, I don't want to put God in a box, right, I just, I refuse to put God in a box, right, I refuse to put God in a box, Pierre. I hear you.
Speaker 2:I was just when I seen even like growing up, when I saw stuff like that I'm like okay, that's not real and it could have been. But just like the laying hands and people falling out and like someone that's maybe been in a wheelchair and all of a sudden you know they're in front of a big crowd, they get up and walk. That's maybe been in a wheelchair and all of a sudden you know they're in front of a big crowd, they get up and walk. I'm like that's just not real. I didn't believe it. I still would probably have doubts to this day that that takes place. Just based off what you know, I know.
Speaker 2:Do I believe miracles happen? Yeah, absolutely. Do I believe those are taking place? No, not from any pastor's hands or anything along those lines. So it's tough for me when I read through stuff like that. Again, trying to imagine it taking place is really hard for me to grasp that, just because it's not something I can say I've witnessed to that extent in my own life. I've seen healings take place and I've seen things disappear, but I haven't seen someone passing around clothes that's, you know, driving out evil spirit.
Speaker 1:So we took a high school group to a meeting a revival meeting, I don't know but it was somebody who was able to perform miracles. It was on their flyer, you know what I mean? It was on the radio. We took a teenage group there and this person was somebody who they were saying that they could All right, okay, so there's 10, 12 of us as a group. We went in there and let me just say and I don't mean this in any way whatsoever, I just don't know how else to describe it. I'm not a wordsmith and if I was, I'd have a very small tool bag. It was in a predominantly black neighborhood.
Speaker 1:Okay, the pastor who was able to perform the miracles was white and a woman, and I don't know what. What I'll let you guys draw your correlations to all this. And we were there and we were listening and, um, the conversation was a lot about how you can get out of your poor situation monetarily if you will give more. That was the gist of the sermon. And we were there. I'll bet you an hour, 15, hour, 30 minutes, and it was time to go.
Speaker 1:Teenagers things started at 7, so we had to get the kids home. So we went out, we left, just kind of as inconspicuously as we could, being the only white people that were there, and went out the back door and the kids and some of the other adults were talking in the parking lot, and I went back to the door and I started listening just to hear, because I was like, okay, I don't want to miss anything, that's what, like, if they're doing miracles. Now I want to go back in and see, you know what I mean. Like I wanted to see stuff. I wanted to believe.
Speaker 1:I wasn't there to disbelieve, I was there seeking, you know what I heard. What's that? Alright, now that the unbelievers are gone. And then I heard more of the rhetoric and passing the plate around. We're going to be taking the offering, and that's that's what I heard. I was really disappointed, you know, because I thought that they were taking advantage of this particular group of people and they were making promises that couldn't be followed up with. And and I was disheartened, right, because I see in the book of Acts how these miracles are happening and it's happening to unbelievers, to make them believe. Yeah, and that's what I see. Anyway, that was a story, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that still happens, unfortunately, um, even some perhaps in some mega situations, some of the mega church situations, where it's just I think they call it prosperity gospel and uh, it's just tough because people are looking for hope, like when you look, maybe you'll know this what are the top grossing movies of like all time? What do?
Speaker 1:you think they?
Speaker 2:are.
Speaker 1:Who me or I am not a movie guy.
Speaker 2:I know because we watch some of them.
Speaker 3:Like Titanic.
Speaker 2:What do you think are the top grossing movies?
Speaker 1:I would say Jaws.
Speaker 2:It's probably like Mission. Impossible or something. It's your Marvel, your superhero movies. I think that's because, deep down, people truly want to be saved, they want to have hope. You look at you know, like infinity, infinity wars and end game and those movies they're like the top grossing movies, even like deadpool.
Speaker 2:Um, wouldn't recommend it necessarily to the listeners but it's one of the top grossing movies and the the thing behind them is superheroes like folks want to feel safe, they want to be saved, they want to have hope.
Speaker 2:Um, harry potter is another one right up there and you think about like the wizardry and the magic. It's just people want to believe in so much more and I feel like oftentimes people take advantage of that and it's really disheartening when you read about, you know, the lady that gives like basically all she had, compared to those that were rich, she gave all she had and Jesus was like I tell you, she's given more than they've given, because she's basically given all she has. And the people use that to pit it against those that are less fortunate and like take some of these people's like last dimes and there's nothing, and at least there's nothing perceived Like obviously God can still come in and do something himself to save these people and do something himself to save these people and he just hoped that they realized you know that it's god if that does happen and it's not these crooks that just took advantage of, because it happens like over and over again, like so many different scams. Like folks are calling non-stop telemarketers sending different types of texts and just links and hackers just trying to take advantage of people. And it happens.
Speaker 3:You know what the bible related to, which is really unfortunate nobody said people would use that, those skills, how hard they have to work and try for good.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, it'd be crazy yeah, I just remembered what we talked about at the beginning of the episode and how I was saying that we didn't take a penny. Totally uncorrelated y'all. I did not think about that. That was not something that I was thinking about whenever I was discussing that earlier and it just now hit me. I'm not trying to brag on us for doing that, but it is something to say that we're not trying to do that for sordid gain. It kind of all ties into this.
Speaker 1:And let me just say this when Paul was leaving Ephesus for the last time, this is years later in the story where we're at right now. This is years later and this is in Acts, chapter 20. And he's saying goodbye to the elders who were at that church in Ephesus and he's essentially saying I can't come back here because I'm going to die, they're going to kill me. So he's telling these really close people that he spent all this time with and this is some of his words, not mine. Let me say this beforehand Could Paul have charged a fee to heal people? Sure, absolutely. How much money could Paul have received for healing people?
Speaker 2:As much as he would like.
Speaker 1:As much as Joel Osteen's mansion yeah.
Speaker 2:People, people. Why do you think I'm not going to get into the U S and kind of our our healthcare system, but people pay a lot of money to be healed, to try to stay alive.
Speaker 1:So, paul, and and and listen, I know why I do not. I cannot heal people. Ok, I know why I can't. I know why I'm not a famous podcaster. Do you know? I would have billboards, I would. I'd be going around everywhere. Hey, you want something done, let me do it. You know, there's a guy. He had one of his commercials. He's a lawyer and you know, if you get a big car accident or something, he'll always say call me Alabama, that's what he says. Right, and I would be that guy. I would be all over everything and I'm afraid that I would be doing it for my own gain. You know what I mean. It would be an ego thing for me, not necessarily like a getting rich thing. I think I don't know. I try to put myself in these positions and I'm like I see why the Lord doesn't bless me with those same gifts that he gave to other people. I would like to think I'm better than that, but I just. I know me, pierre, I make that too.
Speaker 2:Like I often see, you know, like millionaires or those that are rich, and I'm like can I mess that up? Would I blow that? Is there a reason that that's not my blessing or that my gift isn't? You know, being seven foot tall, dunking a basketball, would I just blow it? And I often want to say no, I wouldn't. I talk about all the good things that I would do and all the good things that I do now and then I get to wonder like would it change? Would I stop doing those good things? Because money can change people and fame can change people. It does change people. You often hear like the rich and famous, like say they wasn't rich, they wouldn't, they wouldn't wish it on anybody, and I think there's something to that.
Speaker 2:Like everyone's like, oh no, like more money, more problems, no way, no way. But I think ultimately there's something to that, because even if you don't change like the people around you change right.
Speaker 3:It just becomes a a completely different burden well, I think it'd be really difficult to know who your real friends are, yeah, or who really cares about you like have you ever been like near, like a celebrity with like, uh, I hung out.
Speaker 1:I hung out uh one time before a basketball game and and uh greeted the nba basketball players coming into a arena here.
Speaker 2:It here where I lived people are, people are crazy oh yeah, and and it's not just at arenas like your everyday life. Oh yeah, people are running up with expectations that you, you need to perform, even when you're not at the stage of performing, and, knowing my patience, I I would snap, I couldn't do it, and so I think that's part of the reason with myself that's your reason, but it's just crazy like the what goes through people's minds. They feel entitled to your personal space because they bought a ticket or something.
Speaker 1:And see, I don't think that I would do it for riches. If I was able to perform miracles, I think I'd be doing it for show more than anything else. I like to put on a show and I can see myself, after every miracle, giving it a little Ric, Flair, woo afterwards. Hey, you want to see a miracle? Give me three claps, Woo and a woo. I could just see myself doing that.
Speaker 1:But this is Paul, not me. And as he's saying goodbye, he says therefore to these elders here in Ephesus therefore, be on alert, remembering night and day that for a period of three years, I did not cease to admonish each one of you with tears, and now I commend you to God and the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. I have coveted no one's silver. I have coveted no one's silver. I have coveted no one's gold or clothes. You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my own needs and to the men who were with me In everything. I showed you that, by working hard in this manner, you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus that he himself said it is more blessed to give than it is to receive.
Speaker 1:Paul essentially said I didn't take a dime for the things that I did, and I don't know what he did. We know Paul was a tent maker, but I'm inserting that he said I made tents to not only support myself but also these men who were with me. So he didn't take a dime to do those things. And I'm just saying listeners, be careful of the people who are asking for money. I'm not saying that we don't give to the church. I'm not saying that we don't drop your tithes in the bucket or whatever. I'm not saying that because in order to have a building, you've got to pay for the building. In order to have a preacher, I think you should not muscle the ox, as the Bible would say, and pay the preacher or pay the pastor or the staff or something like that, but just be careful with all that.
Speaker 3:There is a supernatural blessing that cannot be explained in tithing. It was unreal to me when we first started. We would drop a 20 on a weekend or whatever before we did our 10% tithe, but they did like a 90-day a 90 day challenge, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like a 90 day challenge at church a few years ago and basically, if you tithe your 10% in those within those 90 days, at the end of the 90 days um, you know you feel like your, your finances can't handle it They'll give you all of your money back. And Pierre and I were absolutely certain I mean zero chance that we weren't asking for our money back at the end of the 90 days.
Speaker 3:And I'm serious, like I'm not even like exaggerating, like we knew we were going to have to ask for it because there was just no way we could sustain it. And at the end of the 90 days we were better off financially than we were when we started. And to this day I can't explain it to you on paper and like we've never stopped because of that, like God has shown up for us and so there is absolutely something to tithing. So please don't think that we're saying don't tithe.
Speaker 1:We're just saying be careful, please don't think that we're saying don't tithe. We're just saying be careful, yes, of the person asking for money so that they could perform a miracle in your life or send you a handkerchief or anointing oil. Be careful, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Back to Acts 19,. Okay, so these extraordinary miracles were happening, by Paul and by his clothing even, and that sickness, that disease, left people and that evil spirits went out of people. But also some of the Jewish exorcists which I found was interesting, that there was Jewish exorcists who went from place to place, attempted to name and I'm in verse 13 of Acts 19. Yeah, acts 19. Attempted to name, and I'm in verse 13 of Acts 19,. Yeah, acts 19. Some of the Jewish exorcists who went from place to place, attempted to name, over those who had the evil spirits, the name of the Lord Jesus, saying I adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preaches.
Speaker 3:That's my best Jewish exorcist voice. It sounds like the Dracula on the hotel chains.
Speaker 1:I adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preaches, and seven sons oh, that's the end of the quote, I'm sorry. Oh, it does have quotes. So they say that trying to exercise out the demons by the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches which is interesting they got to throw Paul's name in there too. And seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this, and the evil spirit answered and said to them I recognize Jesus and I know about Paul, but who are you and the man in whom the evil spirit leaped on them and subdued all seven of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded? I think that that's just a testament to what Paul was able to do and how people try to fake what some of the apostles do, and then they'll find out that that's not something you should do. And, pierre, I threw the naked and wounded part in there just for you, but it's in the Bible, but I thought you would like that.
Speaker 2:I was just naked and bleeding, but yeah, that's a wake up call, isn't it? You think you got something going. You know I could do this. You know the name of jesus, who paul preaches, and the evil spirit is like nah, nah, you're not the one. We're not afraid of you, and I know jesus.
Speaker 1:I know, paul, I don't know who you seven people are yeah, who are you talking to?
Speaker 2:You better get up out. That's just interesting, because we're taught to be bold and courageous, but we're also taught not to be stupid. Don't do things that you're not ordained to do. I guess I would say it's a wake-up call, because we can I mean, we can all have faith, but we don't have the Holy Spirit with us. You know we're not. We don't stand a chance in certain situations. So it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Almost done here for tonight, anyway, and let me find a great place to stop, which I think is in a couple of verses. Okay, verse 17. And this became known to both Jews and to Greeks who lived in Ephesus, and fear fell upon all of them and fell upon them all, and in the name of the Lord, jesus was being magnified. Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing all their practices, and many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and they began burning them in the sight of everybody, and they counted up the price of them all and found it to be 50,000 pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord was growing, mighty and prevailing here in Ephesus. Their practice of magic, their practice of voodoo, and they were confessing their sins and disclosing those different kinds of practices. Now let me tell you a little bit about what and I'm going to do this now because I think it's kind of relevant to our society right now okay, of what Ephesus was like, and this is coming from another book. It's called the Haley's Bible Handbook. You can get it if you want. It's a good insight to a lot of the things. A very smart guy, very smart guy. Let me tell you what he says about Ephesus.
Speaker 1:Ephesus was a proud, rich, busy port. At the end of the caravan route from Asia, from Ephesus, goods were shipped out to other Mediterranean ports. This huge city contained a theater seating about 25,000 people, an agri I don't know if that's how you say it or a town square that's also served as a marketplace of goods and ideas, public baths, a library and a number of temples. So there's a lot of things going on here. Ephesus was built near the shrine of an old Anatolian fertility goddess and became the center of her cult. This deity was known to the Greeks as Artemis and to the Romans as Diana. And a little side note here, pierre Mm-hmm. I think that this Diana character that this temple was in name of I think it is who Michael Jackson sung that song, dirty Diana for.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 1:Ha ha. Okay, I thought it would be funnier than that.
Speaker 2:We don't make fun of Michael Jackson, indiana. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Reading on Bad joke. The Temple of Diana was discovered by J Indiana. Okay, all right. Reading on Bad joke. The Temple of Diana was discovered by JT Wood in 1870. It may have been the largest building in the Greek world, grotesquely represented with turreted heads and many breasts. That's what the Diana statue was about. Yeah, the goddess and her cult found expression in the famous temple served, like that of apophratiti, a Corinth, by a host of many priestesses and, I don't know, courtesans. Is that what it is? The Diana cult generated much trade and essentially it was like a place of prostitution. Is what it was? Okay, that's essentially, and many other things besides, that We'll get to that in the book of Ephesus Ephesians, it's like whenever we start reading it and Paul starts talking about it.
Speaker 2:We didn't get to Ephesians tonight, Sorry that didn't take place.
Speaker 3:Cover Ephesians.
Speaker 1:And I say that this temple was about all those things right, and a lot of stuff was going on there that should never be going. And whenever you read the book of Ephesians, you'll see Paul saying, hey, this is who some of you people were. You guys used to be fornicators, you guys used to be magicians. You guys used to be fornicators. You guys used to be magicians, you guys used to be. You know a lot of different things, but that's not who you are now. And I can't help but think of like we talk about socially relevant stuff here on this podcast as well um, p diddy's house is that how you say his name, p diddy, puff daddy, his house, yeah, and what they found in there and everything and and just the stuff that was going on in there. We could say, well, that place was crazy in Ephesus. I'm glad that stuff doesn't go on nowadays.
Speaker 2:So you said that. Paul said that. That's not who you are anymore, right? Do you consider yourself a sinner, Wes?
Speaker 1:A sinner saved by grace. How about that?
Speaker 2:But you consider yourself a sinner though. No, but yes. So it's weird, because we kind of get taught that we're all sinners, saved by grace, still sinners, though. You even hear pastors say we're still a room full of sinners. But I've been thinking about that, because when you think about what Jesus died for what did he die? For? Our sins, our sins, did he say? It was a work in progress.
Speaker 1:Once for all.
Speaker 2:He said it was finished. Yet we still call ourselves sinners. I don't know. I just I know me and Michelle talked about like Alcoholics Anonymous and her Thanks for dad said that it really bothered him that you know part of your opening.
Speaker 2:You say your name and that I'm an alcoholic and you're basically putting that stamp on yourself. And the mind's a powerful thing and you're basically telling yourself you're an alcoholic and, as I kind of went across this here recently with the whole, you know we are sinners, we're all sinners. I don't think we should be saying that. I think we should be saying we're righteous because Jesus said he died for our sins and that it was finished, it's over. So if we are sinners, we need to fix it to the point where we're not anymore, because that's not what we should be calling ourselves. Just as Paul said you know to the city, that's not who you are. It may be been who you were, that's not who you are anymore. So I kind of challenged us all to stop calling ourselves sinners and if we are, because we're still sinning, then put a halt to it, because Jesus said it was finished. He died for all of that.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, and like you said, your brain's a powerful thing and so your subconscious is going to work to do what you tell it.
Speaker 1:I agree it believes you food for thought no, no, I think it's good, and uh, we we're told too that we are. We are saints, so we might as well act like saints and we'll do our best to be saints. How about that? Absolutely, and let's not carry that guilt and shame along with us again for the next three months, until we come out with a new episode here.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Hey, we do.
Speaker 3:I speak to the show.
Speaker 1:We do hope to get to you sooner. We're working all these kinks out, but anyway, we'll keep on going until we get to Ephesians. How about that, travis? But I think you've got to have a little background, and there's a little more background to come, but I think this is a good starting point to the book of Ephesians, and it gives us something to do. So make sure you read the book of Ephesians before we come back together to talk more about it, because once we get to Ephesians, we'll be able to fly right through it. It's a good conversation, though, tonight, pierre and Michelle.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Wes.
Speaker 1:All right, make sure you leave that comment, leave that review, hit those stars. Not for anything, we're not asking for anything, but hopefully somehow the Lord uses that evil algorithm on your phone for His good and His glory and gets the show in somebody's podcast feed. That needs to hear it, and it'd just be a wonderful blessing to be able to share our lives with more people. Thank you so much for listening. Continue to pray for us and we will continue to pray for you.