As the shadow of a solar eclipse crossed our skies, my own shadow seemed to stretch across time, connecting me to ancient civilizations and their fear-induced reverence for such celestial events. This episode is a tapestry interwoven with personal reflections on the recent eclipse, musings on how our ancestors interpreted the darkening of their deities, and an introspective dive into the Book of Job. Our conversation about this profound narrative reveals how the trials of a biblical figure can mirror our current struggles with faith and understanding in the face of suffering.
The Book of Job, often enigmatic and always compelling, serves as a backdrop for our episode's deeper inquiry into the human condition. We examine Job's friends' misinterpretations of his suffering, connecting it to our tendency to impose our own narratives on others' hardships. Through personal anecdotes, we illustrate the universal drive to do good amidst life's capriciousness, drawing parallels between ancient wisdom and the day-to-day efforts to maintain integrity. The discussion leads us to the spiritual and philosophical, where we consider the duality of creation embodied by figures like Leviathan, illustrating the omnipresent dance between nature's beauty and terror.
Closing this thought-provoking episode, we reflect on the essence of restoration and mercy as witnessed in Job's life. We explore the significance of adversity in shaping character, especially in roles like parenting and personal growth. The resilience that springs from trials and the mercy that follows can be transformative, providing powerful testimonies of faith that resonate across time. Join us as we connect cosmic occurrences and timeless biblical lessons to the tangible aspects of our modern lives, from unclogging sinks to tackling the challenges that keep us awake at night.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
As the shadow of a solar eclipse crossed our skies, my own shadow seemed to stretch across time, connecting me to ancient civilizations and their fear-induced reverence for such celestial events. This episode is a tapestry interwoven with personal reflections on the recent eclipse, musings on how our ancestors interpreted the darkening of their deities, and an introspective dive into the Book of Job. Our conversation about this profound narrative reveals how the trials of a biblical figure can mirror our current struggles with faith and understanding in the face of suffering.
The Book of Job, often enigmatic and always compelling, serves as a backdrop for our episode's deeper inquiry into the human condition. We examine Job's friends' misinterpretations of his suffering, connecting it to our tendency to impose our own narratives on others' hardships. Through personal anecdotes, we illustrate the universal drive to do good amidst life's capriciousness, drawing parallels between ancient wisdom and the day-to-day efforts to maintain integrity. The discussion leads us to the spiritual and philosophical, where we consider the duality of creation embodied by figures like Leviathan, illustrating the omnipresent dance between nature's beauty and terror.
Closing this thought-provoking episode, we reflect on the essence of restoration and mercy as witnessed in Job's life. We explore the significance of adversity in shaping character, especially in roles like parenting and personal growth. The resilience that springs from trials and the mercy that follows can be transformative, providing powerful testimonies of faith that resonate across time. Join us as we connect cosmic occurrences and timeless biblical lessons to the tangible aspects of our modern lives, from unclogging sinks to tackling the challenges that keep us awake at night.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
It's time to wake up and pray up here. On the Finding Faith in Losing Sleep podcast, I'm Wes Easley, one of your hosts, and I'm always joined by the real star of the show, pierre Wilson, and his wife, michelle Wilson. How are you all doing tonight?
Speaker 2:I have no star I can tell you that.
Speaker 3:Me either, but we're good Wes.
Speaker 1:You mean no stars? Come on man, you guys were sitting out there. I saw pictures where you guys were sitting out there under the stars looking at the eclipse happening there in your neck of the woods. That had to be pretty cool. I didn't see anything down here in good old Alabama.
Speaker 2:That was nice. I was surprised. I was kind of like going into it. It was like a meh type of situation. If I'm being honest, I wasn't too thrilled. I wanted to see it some, but the moment it covered fully the totality, that was special. Just how dark it got, but how bright it still was with the darkness, how cold, like the temperature dropped, it was pretty surreal. So that was cool. What wasn't cool were all the people that that traveled to our city. Like on friday night, like pizza places stopped taking orders at like eight o'clock, like they were just so packed and hotels were expensive, like you were like in vegas or something like that. So I'm not I'm not wanting to be in a tourist town. I can tell you that much, just based on what happened with the eclipse.
Speaker 1:And you know, it was the people. People talk about these things and they try to lead people into conspiracies and stuff like that. It all makes sense of why states would call in the National Guard or a state of emergency before it all happens. States would call in the National Guard or a state of emergency before it all happens. They can judge these things by how many hotel bookings they have, you know, and how many planned people are coming into the neighborhoods and the areas, and you're just going to need a little bit more support during that time. So it's you know. The government does make sense sometimes in what they do.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think we were a little busier because a lot of areas that were in the path of totality ended up having a lot of cloud cover and we did not.
Speaker 1:So one of the things, though, that I thought about during the eclipse is how, if you didn't, you know, I would want to say that we are more educated than our ancestors. Now that's that may not be true. There's a lot of things to think about, like the caveman and all those kind of people being maybe a little bit more intelligent than what we give them credit for, and I just can't imagine, though, what it would be like way back when, when maybe you didn't have the technology to know that the moon and the sun and you didn't have a month's warning or something like that, how they had it all on the news and everything, and then, all of a sudden, one day, it just gets dark right there.
Speaker 3:Could you imagine he's so scary?
Speaker 2:you would think it's over. Probably you think this is it and well, I turned the prayer.
Speaker 3:If you were praying in person, like what's happening right now, well, I'm pretty sure I heard and I could be wrong and I would have to look it up but um, I think I heard on k love that the word eclipse stems from the meaning. The meaning of the word comes from the word of band, the greek word maybe a bit of abandon is what it means. So they probably felt like they were abandoned in that moment, like what the world is happening. I also saw West that um, people were um kind of drawing the line between that and like the stone rolling away, like how similar that would look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I could see that because the the shape of everything being circular and then just kind of going from dark to light and all that stuff. Could you imagine too if you coupled the eclipse With like an earthquake happening, like it did in New Jersey, I think it was and then all of a sudden then there's an eclipse, like the next day or however, it wasn't very long, I mean, your whole world would be coming to an end, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:that's it that is for sure. We talk about that like it's the. How many people really kind of take into account like the the old olden days where, like none of this technology and stuff existed? Like we even talk about like not even knowing what you, you look like yourself, you think, like without, like a mirror or like a reflection on the water. You have no idea what you even would look like. So like probably no body shaming or anything on those lines would call you ugly. You wouldn't. You wouldn't know, you wouldn't have any idea if you were attractive or not now I maybe the attention they got how you doing.
Speaker 1:I, I think, I wouldn't want to know, I wouldn't want to know how I looked, and then that way I just always walk around thinking that I was the cat's meow, I think that's how you say it.
Speaker 1:Speaking of old books, today we're going to talk about Job, the book of Job, and the reason why we're going to revisit it. I know we talked about it before on some previous episodes here and there, but I'm going through this audible book, right, the audible, audible, audible Bible how do you say that? Year in a plan, plan in a year, year in a plan? And I'm going through that Bible and it just sounded different. It hit different going through somebody reading it to me and me listening to it with the earbuds on, and it just hit a little bit different. So I texted you, pierre, and I said, hey, let's cover the book of Job and especially those last chapters wherever God is answering and responding to Job.
Speaker 1:So Job is like the very first book we're going to say the oldest book in the Bible. That's what a lot of people always say. It's the oldest book in the Bible. It was written before, I guess, the documentation, the manuscripts, it's the oldest recorded book, all right, so it's not before Genesis and parts of Genesis, but what I'm working through is actually a chronological view of the Bible, and so let me tell you guys this, this version I don't even know what version it is. I just I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm not good with technology myself, so I probably you could have told me that there was going to be an eclipse, and I wouldn't even know it, even though I have all this technology in front of me, because I just mash buttons, all right. And so I'm listening to this audio Bible, and I don't know what version it is or anything, but it's just really cool. And it puts the book of Job right after the Tower of Babel in the book of Genesis. Ok, so that's where it slotted the chronological part of Job. And I got to thinking about that, I got to wondering huh, so yeah, it makes sense that Job wasn't written before the beginning of the world. Ok, that makes sense, right.
Speaker 1:Yes a little bit the beginning of the world. Okay, that makes sense, right, and it probably makes sense that Job was, after Adam and Eve, the first people that recorded in the Bible. Okay, that makes sense too. And then through the family, through Noah and through the destruction of the earth, through the flood, right, and then it gets to the Tower of Babel and then boom, that kind of does make sense. It makes a little bit of sense that maybe Job got to what? Where was he? The land of us is, I think, where he was, because he was. He was kind of scattered abroad, maybe. Maybe not him personally, but his family was scattered abroad after the tower of babel it's.
Speaker 2:It's quite possible and I know we've talked about it. But I I just struggle with the whole book and I won't go back into all the details. But you'll see kind of how we discussed the end here, I believe, is more of like the finale of kind of what he went through. But it's just a struggle for me on kind of how this whole book played out, how things played out for Job. You know highs, lows, high, kind of like that sandwich technique where you had the bread and you had the stuff in between. Then you had some more bread at the end. But we'll dive into it and I'm sure I'll share plenty of thoughts on it.
Speaker 1:Does he have a lot of thoughts, Michelle, on this?
Speaker 1:Oh, he does, on this one, for sure this is probably one we've talked about more than most for sure this stuff is the stuff that keeps him up at night thinking, huh, and until you act like you're gonna say something, then all of a sudden he's snoring. I know how player plays that game. Uh, yes, so. So he's living in the land of us and I, I I kind of had this revelation as I was listening to this. Okay, and it may not be anything new and I may have shared it with you before. Can I back up a little bit? Sure, can I tell you guys about whenever I was a young, young Christian, right, I mean, just out of the baptismal womb, you could kind of say, okay, I don't know if it's ever been said like that, but I did, I'll turn it back womb. You could kind of say, okay, I don't know if it's ever been said like that, but I did. And we used to have.
Speaker 1:We had these scripture readings at the beginning of church and they asked me to read the scripture. This guy said, hey, you can read the scripture. Now you're a baptized believer, you can read scripture. I said, okay, yeah, no problem, no problem, I'll be happy to do it. I'm always a guy who doesn't understand the severity of the situation, so I'll just do something right. And he gave me this book of Job to read in front of the thing. That was just one chapter or just like five verses or something, whatever the chapter he was preaching that day, and so he just gave me this little snippet to read, right? So I got up in front of the congregation and.
Speaker 1:I don't know diddly do about anything about the Bible especially. So I got up there and I got my book turned open book of Job and I get up there in front of everybody and I look out at the crowd, just like you're supposed to. I do a good job with that and I said today I'll be reading from the book of Job. That's where I walked into my Christian life.
Speaker 1:I didn't know it. Hey, it looks like Job, doesn't it? I mean, I didn't mispronounce it, no, it didn't even give me a heads up. I was wondering if that's kind of like an initiation into the church is what it was.
Speaker 2:There you go. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly how it looks, that's how most would pronounce it if you hadn't heard it elsewhere.
Speaker 1:Very true. So that's how the book kind of kicks off, is you got Job being here and he's a great man in the land of Uz and what I've what I? The way I pictured the book of Job this time was it's kind of like a play, michelle, where it's this physical reality realm and then a spiritual realm, but with us being able to read the entirety of Job instead of just seeing it kind of happen. As it goes.
Speaker 1:You get this physical element of Job where at the beginning of it it tells us he's living in the book of Uz and he's got all these kids, he's a reputable man, he's got all this money, he seems to be a man of high prestige and honor here in the city. So we're looking at that physical thing, if you're looking at Job from a place perspective. But then the scene changes and then we get to see the spiritual realm where things are going on that we don't necessarily know what's going on from our physical standpoints that we're in right now, but there's a spiritual world, a spiritual realm that we just can't even see and there's stuff that's going on there. So I envisioned it like a play where I kept looking at this physical realm, that Job and his friends and his family were in, and then there was a spiritual realm where we see God and Satan, and then, at the end of the book, we also see God again replying.
Speaker 3:God, of course, is intermingling in between the physical and the spiritual realm, and so is Satan, it seems like, michelle, it does and it feels like Pierre struggles with this because he's like it's like Satan was like, hey, you should do this, and God's like, yeah, that's a good idea, I think I will. And like that just frustrates Pierre to no end and I have to say I understand it. It is perplexing, for sure, and it's it's odd for us to see, and I think it's hard for us to wrap our brains around. Um, I guess you just kind of have to go to the place where God knows more than we do and he understands what that purpose truly was. And we may never know it until we can go ask him. But yeah, it's, it's crazy for sure.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's crazy for sure, pierre, when that happens, when you see Job in his physical realm and he gets attacked by Satan, right, and I mean everything just starts his world starts collapsing on him. It just starts collapsing in on him a little bit and then it says, pierre and I bring this up with you because you and I have been friends now for a long time and we've been through some things together, actually just on a personal level he gets surrounded by his friends, by three of his friends, and they just sit in silence for like seven days. Now, you know, I wouldn't be able to do that for seven days, pierre, but they just sit there in silence and then when Job finally says something after—I guess I got to back up a little bit because his world, job's world, craters in on him. God allows Satan—if you haven't read this, you need to go back and read. Like, start the book of Job and just start reading, and it'll just trip you out.
Speaker 1:And we have other episodes talking more about this later, talking more about this in earlier past episodes. Job just everything gets taken away. All his children get taken away, all his riches get taken away. The only thing he's left with is his wife. I mean, he lost like what, seven, nine children, something like that I can't even remember how many it is, and just an upright guy.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure Job had to be sitting there, pierre, like what in the world happened to me? What happened, what did I do? And then his friends surround him and they just sit in silence. And then, when they broke their silence, job was just talking about how he wished he was never born. You know, we talk about Job being a strong man and a faithful man and those things are true, but at this point, the very first things he says out of his mouth is that he wishes he would have never have been born. You know, he said if there were people who are good at cursing, I wish they would just curse the day I was born. Is what he said, pierre, how do you handle a situation like that with somebody whose life is just turning in on them? You seem to be a lot better at being able to be silent and just being with people than I am.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's tough. And again, this book is a struggle because you think about the stature. So think about where he was in life. Things were going really well and, from everything we're told, he was doing things the right way. He was a righteous man. So put yourself in his shoes. Whether it's you Wes, whether it's the listener listening, put yourself in the shoes that you're living life right. Quote unquote Things are going well for you.
Speaker 2:You're trying to do God's work as well in the process, and then it's all just taken away in an instant. Now what we see is basically the devil, satan, trying to basically convince God that Job's's gonna not be the guy he is. He's not gonna be that righteous man. Once all his stuff's removed from him, once all his people are taken away, all his things, his property, he's not gonna be the man that you think he is. And again, the struggle is that, like you said, god allows it, for one allows Satan to kind of take all these things from Job and not touch him.
Speaker 2:But just being in that situation, yeah, why would you want to live? It'd be really hard, right? So, yeah, you want that to be removed because you're doing I know the Bible. We don't know where the Bible was at this point. But if you're doing in today's world what the Bible says to do you're living a good life, you're righteous, you're doing everything you believe you should be doing and you're a godly man and everything gets taken away, it's hard to cope with that, it's hard to adjust with that. So, yeah, you would definitely want to be, I think, cursed in that moment. Everything got taken away from you. So you kind of want to be taken away from the situation yourself.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that basically the whole gist of this chapter Job in and of itself is like you know, it's confusing to us, but we just have to trust God, even when we don't understand him and even when he's like thoroughly confusing to us. That's kind of the point is that we don't understand it, but we still have to trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's hard, and then the silence. Like I'm, sometimes there's just not words in situations when you see loved ones, friends, going through a hardship, there are situations where nothing you're going to say in that moment is going to take away the pain or going to make that person feel better, but being there and just sitting there so they can see that you're there. If ever there's a time that they decide to talk about it, you're, you're right there, but you're not you're not forcing it, you're not, you know, rushing them into saying something they may not want to say or saying something wrong because they feel pressure to say it. You're just kind of sitting in in peace at, to some extent, it's true, when there's there's no words that are going to come out of your mouth that are going to make that situation better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, that, no, that's right. And obviously his friends didn't help the situation much at all, as because whenever Job would get done going through you know his, his, just, I wish I was never born his friends would be like, well, yeah, because you've obviously done something wrong. That's the only reason why all this is happening to you, because you are keeping some kind of sin secret between you and God. But here's where this spiritual and physical realm come into play. They're just looking at it from a—they're trying to make the spiritual realm and the physical realm match. But that's not at all what was going on.
Speaker 1:We know the story and we know that's not why Job was going through what he was going through. We know that story, but we see it in the physical realm as oh, that makes a lot of sense. And his friends saw it like oh, that makes a lot of sense. He's done something wrong and so God is punishing him. But God wasn't punishing Job. He wasn't punishing him, he was allowing it to happen. But it wasn't a punishment for something that Job had done wrong. It was more of an encouraging thing for all of us that get to read it afterwards and get to see the play play out. We get to see that somebody can be strong through a lot of bad things that happen to them in their life and they aren't necessarily being punished for anything. Job wasn't punished, you know, but that's how I was friends looked at it, so that's that play thing that I was talking about.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, if anything, you're gonna try to reason why something's happening in this world. That's just human nature. You're going to be like, okay, well, maybe this took place or maybe that happened. If someone gets mad at you that has no right or no reason to be mad at you. You're still going to be thinking what did I do to make this person upset? And you're going to start thinking back. And it could be nothing at all, but that's still just going to be thinking. What did I do to make this person upset? And you're going to start thinking back and it could be nothing at all, but that's still just going to be the human nature.
Speaker 2:So if you see someone going through a hardship, let's say a homeless person on the street, we're going to assume that something took place that put them in that situation. That's just human nature. We don't know what that's going to be. We're going to make assumptions. I know people make assumptions that they want money for drugs, they want money for alcohol. Those are all assumptions that are made based off someone's circumstances and the friends quote unquote in this situation were doing the same to Job that clearly, given what your lifestyle was and where you're at now, you clearly had to do something wrong from a sin standpoint, upsetting God type of situation.
Speaker 1:Job says something interesting and all that where he well, he says a lot of interesting things and so do his friends, right, but Job says, you know, I'm just like a hired hand, it's kind of what he says. And he just says I'm doing, I'm just supposed to do what I'm supposed to do. I got to do what's right and and um, some recovery process classes that I taught that I went through myself. You know, it's always you got to do the next right thing, even if you think you messed up, even if you think you've done something wrong, or even if somebody has done something wrong to you. Ask yourself this question what's the next right thing to do? And then do it.
Speaker 1:And and you know, if all your intentions are trying to do the right things, you're going to stumble upon doing the right things, even if you accidentally do the wrong thing. Sometimes you know you're you're going to stumble upon doing the right things, even if you accidentally do the wrong thing. Sometimes, if you're practicing the right things over and over and over again, people are going to know that you are practicing those right things over and over and over again and that's what you're going to be known for, even if there is a slip up there. Even if an intention of a right thing turns out to be a wrong thing to do, it's still trying to do the right things and you're just piling up the right things whenever you're trying to do them. That's. That's what I think Job is trying to do while he's sitting down here going. I just wish I didn't have to make this decision.
Speaker 2:You think about so think about it like from like a, let's say, police officer standpoint. From a police officer standpoint. When you're driving out on the road, are you following rules to follow them, to do the next right thing, or are you following rules thinking that an officer's around and you might get in trouble for not stopping at that stop sign or stopping at that stoplight, or for speeding or not having your seatbelt on? If you make it a habit of just doing those right things, odds are you're not going to get pulled over. If you're doing it just to not get caught, odds are you're going to eventually get caught.
Speaker 1:I'm not one to ask about rules for the police officers and laws and stuff like that. I drive down the middle of the road here. I'm just going to be honest with you. I do, but I drive the bread trucks a lot of times and so I give myself a little bit of clearance over there on the right-hand side. So I think of them more as suggestions and you know I'm trying to abide by the rules, but I'm also going. Well, they did that so everybody could be safe, and a bread truck riding real close to that yellow line over there on my right-hand side ain't very safe.
Speaker 2:That's just what I'm thinking. You just said you tried to abide by the rules, so just that alone is going to put you in better situations than those that don't and are just simply trying not to get caught.
Speaker 1:Okay, if I get pulled over for that, I'll let them know that you told me I could.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:How about that? So throughout all this, job starts questioning God and really petitioning God in the book of Job and he starts, you know, just begging him. Just tell me what's wrong, just tell me the answer, just do whatever it is I have to do, just end my life or just do something, god, you know, he just kind of starts doing that. And then we see in that spiritual realm that God had been hearing all of these things and then all of a sudden the Lord starts challenging Job, kind of answering Job. Now, keep in mind, during all this, job is having some dreams too. It says where his world is getting shaken and I wonder if God wasn't communicating with Job throughout some of those dreams where Job is just terrified and in a panic, or maybe even we don't know, maybe Satan is doing something in those dreams too, where Job's just waking up, just where he doesn't know what's going on, and those dreams are very real to him.
Speaker 1:I'm not a big dreamer, I don't dream really hard to where I can remember them or anything. I don't know if you guys have those kind of dreams where they're just real, real dreams. I guess every once in a while when I'm trying to fall asleep. I'll be sitting there and you'll be trying to fall asleep and then all of a sudden you're falling or something and then just before you hit something, bam, your whole body just shakes and you wake up. It's like what in the world just happened. It's like I'm glad I woke up because that was obviously going to hurt. But I don't have like dream dreams like that. I don't get into a real REM sleepy kind of thing. I don't know. What do you guys do?
Speaker 3:for sure is when I was in high school, I my room was across from my parents' room and I heard like a scream and I woke up and I thought I woke up and walked across the hall and both my parents were murdered. And of course I screamed in my sleep, apparently and I thought I woke up from the dream and my mom was and like I, my mom was there and then all of a sudden she wasn't and I got up and walked and saw the same thing and I was like, oh my gosh, it's real. And then I actually woke up. Like it was crazy. It was like I woke up inside my dream and then it happened again, like it was nuts, but I mean outside of that. I've had some odd things happen in dreams, but that was back when I slept a lot more hours. Now I don't dream very often, so I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't really have those type of memory dreams, but I can tell when Michelle does. I can tell when dream, when dream Pierre probably wasn't the best character in those dreams. When you wake up and you're getting, like me, mugged and you've been asleep for seven, eight hours, you know there's possibly nothing that you could have done wrong and you're like, oh, dream Pierre was at it again. That guy's a wild guy. I tell you. I cannot be held accountable for the things that dream Pierre does in Michelle's dreams. I want that on record.
Speaker 3:I haven't had that in a very long time, but he's not wrong and it's very real. So it made me very mad. But my best friend does have those dreams a lot and God very clearly and I think I've said that before very clearly speaks to her in her dreams and it's, it's just, it's cool, but it's also a little scary sometimes, like cause it's usually not great if she's dreamt about somebody, and so if she tells me she had a dream about me, I'm like, uh, why, what's going on? So but he, he does speak to her that way.
Speaker 1:I knew, pierre, I knew that Michelle would have some kind of dream story. I did, I just did, you know, uh, and I, I jumped to verse 40 or chapter 40. I jumped to chapter 40. God has talked to Job for a little while. Job has made his petitions to God and questioned God and all his friends and all that stuff. And then I love what God says to Job in verse 6. Then the Lord answered Job from a whirlwind. Now I don't know what that means. I'm just going to be honest with you. I don't know what that means. What's a whirlwind? How's he answering him in a whirlwind? It's the opposite of the still small voice that was in a breeze, that was answering one of the prophets, I believe. And God said brace yourself, like a man, because I got some questions for you and you got to answer them. That's just a strong statement, you know, could you imagine?
Speaker 1:hearing that from God. It's like oh no, not only do I have boils all over me, but I think I just tinkled down my leg too.
Speaker 2:He's been questioning too, so Joe's been. He's been kind of letting God have it. He wants the answers. Now you're about to get him, you're like, well, maybe I don't want the answers anymore.
Speaker 1:There's a, there's a lot of things in here, pierre, that I could look at and I start questioning. You know, I could say in verse 13 of that same chapter, job 40, take a look at the behemoth which I made, just as I made you. It eats grass like an ox, sees it powerful loins and its muscles of its belly. What is the behemoth? You know, that's what I want to know. Is it the elephant? Is it the rhinoceros? I listened to that one a couple of times and I'm like probably a hippopotamus, that's what I was thinking, but it is called something.
Speaker 2:It's its own creature that's no longer around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it could be and it could be, but it's kind of cool to look at. And earlier I think it's in chapter—Joe Bench is the Leviathan in there and it's like, okay, what's the Leviathan? You kind of want to know what it is an alligator or sea? It's a sea monster, you know, hey, and this is, I looked it up, it's the new living translation, this is, and I'm telling you, they start talking about a dragon. They start talking about a dragon in here is what it is, because it sounds like a alligator that flies through the air and has smoke and fire, you know, and it so it sounds like a dragon it's, it's quite possible.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:I mean I I know humans have evolved, but I I can't see that some human just simply made up the, the dragon, that that comes from somewhere and it could be the bible well and, and you know there's so many, there's so many drawings of it I don't want to say pictures, but drawings of it in just old things that I've seen ever since I was a kid that looked like they were really old. Whenever I was a kid, just seeing pictures of them and it's kind of like, oh, I always just I assumed that dragons were dragons and I wasn't. I never thought are they fictitious or were they real? I never thought that, because it looked like a dinosaur to me and a dinosaur was always real, I was told. So I just put it in the same category as a dinosaur.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why not? I mean, there's so many things that are unknown and I think that's kind of what God you know goes into with Job when he's answering some of his questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so too. Is that, hey, there's a lot of things, job, that you don't know, but they are, and you can't tell me that they're not because you see the after effects or you see the, I guess, the evidence of them. You know that a goat in the mountains has babies because you see the evidence of it, but you've never seen one. I have, dope, you've never seen a little baby eagle? I have. Are they called eaglets? I had no idea. Little baby eagles they're called eaglets. Yeah, they gotta be called eaglets. You've never. You you've never seen them, joe, but I have. But you see the evidence of them and and that that speaks to their being a creator. Right, because we don't get to see the actual creation of some things, but we see the evidence of it, which makes us say, okay, well, something had to always be right, something had to always be, because there's always been something Right yeah it has to be the case.
Speaker 2:That's why, like I, I just can't get behind the whole big boom stuff like it just doesn't make sense. Things are are too laid out perfectly for it to just be a a series of coincidences. That chemicals blending together to all you know make this perfect. You know rotating Earth, the sun rising when it's supposed to, the moon, the human body and how it functions, all the other animals and you know how their bodily functions, the mind, the heart, how everything kind of goes together. Like how can you just spontaneously have a combustion and all that just fall into place? For me it doesn't add up. I know everyone has their own beliefs. Everyone has their faith in something, whether it's faith in nothing. They have that faith there and that's just not something I can put my faith in as just a random combustion, knowing all the things that I know right now.
Speaker 1:Speaking of random combustion. I was just looking at that, at the Leviathan again and everything there in chapter 41, I guess it is. I want to emphasize Leviathan's limbs, God says, and its enormous strength and graceful form. Who can strip off its hide? Who can penetrate its double layer of armor? Who can pry open its jaws? For its teeth are terrible. The scale on its back are like rows of shields, tightly sealed together. They are so close together that no air can get between them. Each scale sticks tight to the next. The inner lock-in cannot be penetrated. When it sneezes, it flashes light. Its eyes are like the red of the dawn. Lightning leaps from its mouth. Flames of fire flash out. Smoke streams from its nostrils like steam from a pot. Heated over burning bushes rushes Its breath would kindle. Coals for flames shoot from its mouth. The tremendous strength in Leviathan's neck strikes terror wherever it goes. And that's gotta be a dragon. Sounds like it to me.
Speaker 2:It does. It does sound like a dragon, leviathan the dragon. Is that a book.
Speaker 3:Could be.
Speaker 2:What do you think about Puff?
Speaker 1:the Magic Dragon.
Speaker 2:We got Leviathan the dragon Hell.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, let's do it. Leviathan makes the water boil with its commotion. It stirs, the stirs, the depth, depths. Like a pot of ointment. The water glistens in its wake, making the sea look white. Nothing on earth is as equal. No other creature is so fearless. Of all the creatures, it is the proudest, it is the king of the beasts, that's. That's that makes me stop and just go. What in the world is going on? You know?
Speaker 2:I mean that and the behemoth, so you might kind of put them both together. And there's some, there's some fear there with kind of the descriptions, but even with that there's some. It's kind of like there's some some some majesty that takes place and just the the power of these beasts that are are being described. So it's it's a good and bad, it's like a good and evil type of thing.
Speaker 1:So throughout all that, god, essentially, I think in the gist of it all, even though we don't understand everything, you got to look at the big picture of it. If it's a play, you got to kind of look at the whole, the whole thing and just let it be summarized for you a little bit God, god does like rock, does God? God God says to Job. He says what's your name, job, or what's your name? And Job's about to say his name and God says it doesn't matter what your name is, be quiet and know your role right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Know your role and shut your mouth right.
Speaker 1:And then he tells Job's friends kind of the same thing, except he tells his friends hey, you didn't speak of me the same way Job did. You spoke wrongly of me. You need to go make a sacrifice to kind of get back right with me. I'm sure they ran to go do the sacrifice, by the way, because they'd seen what Job was going through. They didn't want to go through the same thing.
Speaker 1:But God is just letting Job know, his friends know what their role is, and I think it's the same role for us. We're to be good stewards of the things that we have, whether that's our health, whether that's riches, whether that's whatever it is. We need to be good stewards of what we have time. We need to be good stewards with that as well, and we need to make the most of it. We don't know when we'll get afflicted with something that isn't necessarily from God. God may allow it, but it's for us to look like. It's for us to make God look like champion.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's what I think suffering is for for us to make God look like a champion and where to know our role and to go through it. If we're in an army, which, you know, the Bible talks about a Christian being in an army, a soldier, that we're to do whatever we're commanded to do, and sometimes that's a tough thing to do. I know for me I've become a better man since I've had children right. Since I've been a husband. I've become a better handyman around the house. That's what kind of man I've become, and I've had to do some dirty dirty things.
Speaker 1:The other day my daughter's sink was just clogged I guess it's the girl's sink and I got the 17-year-old, I got the eight-year-old, the 17-year-old's got makeup and hair and junk in there, and then the eight-year-old comes running in with a bunch of rocks and so she's cleaning off rocks in the sink and there's just dirt and rocks in the sink and finally the thing was backed up. But before, before I had kids, I never had to unclog a sink and and I never had to get underneath there and undo the little, the little um nuts and bolts from underneath there, whatever it is, and and undo it, get the bucket and let the water drip in there, and then you take it out. And I called the teenager in there because I want the teenager to know how to do this, first of all because I anticipate her having many a clogged sink in her life. I'm sure you're right. So I do it and she's ew, ew, you know, and this gray black water is coming out, ew, ew.
Speaker 1:I don't have to tell the 8-year-old to come in there. She's my little helper, so she's always in wherever I am. She's my little shadow and she's, you know, ooh, cool. You know she likes the dirt. And I showed my daughter, my 17-year-old I pull this big thing of hair out from there. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Sure do, sure do. But you know, as a good soldier in my house, that's my role, that's what I got to do. It's not fun, it's disgusting, I don't enjoy it, but it has to be done, and so that's my role. Sometimes I have to go through these things that I don't necessarily want to do in a position crawled under the sink on my back that I don't want to be in, but I got to do it.
Speaker 3:Because that's what I'm supposed to do, and I think that's true.
Speaker 3:I mean, I've said over and over again through you know, these episodes and just in general, that you know the suffering the suffering that we go through does, at least for me. It makes me more thankful than I ever would have known how to be in the good times without it, and oftentimes it draws me much closer to God because I have to rely on him, and so it's like it's a teaching moment and in a blessing, in disguise, with a lot of times. Um, you know I, I just think that we don't, we're not apt to learn the lessons the way that we do If we don't go through the suffering or the frustrations or loss or whatever that we go through. Um, you know I, like I've said before, I appreciate Pierre and Olivia, and in entirely different way than I ever would have even fathomed how to do before my miscarriage or from bad relationships or, you know, loss of loved ones, whatever it might be. So I think that you know it's, it's perspective in those things and how you look at it and then what you do with it.
Speaker 1:That wasn't my fault. The Sikh wasn't my fault, right? No, I had to do it because that was my role, and that's just what I have to do. And I was paying the price, though, of what other people's I was paying the consequences for other people's decisions. I was changing the oil the other day, and I do this. I don't know if anybody else changes. Peter, do you change your oil of your cars?
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:I enjoy doing it. I got a lot of cars and vehicles, bread trucks. I got to do it when you change the oil. I got this big drain pan thing. Well, I forgot to take the plug out of the middle of the drain pan and I was changing the oil in my truck first, because I hate doing that one. It's just got all kinds of things that I got to get out of the way. It's just the hardest one to change. So I changed it in my truck first and the oil was still hot, warm, hot. It was hot on the warm side, but warm on the hot side, and so the oil started accumulating in the pan right and I said why is it stopped up? Oh, I forgot to take the drain plug out. So I hurried up and took the. I was like I got to stick my hand in there. It's going to be kind of hot. And I went ahead and did it anyway, otherwise I was going to have oil all over the place. So I put my hand in there and I twisted it real quick and I got it out and I started rubbing it off. But it was hot. I was a little my hand burned, a little bit burned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that was my decision, right, that was my mistake. I had to suffer my own consequences, but I had to do it again. You know, I had to do something at that time because that's just what I had to do, but it was by my own fault. There are things that we're going to run into in life where it's not our fault. Sometimes it is our fault, but whatever it is, we just have to tackle it head on and we have to get through it, knowing that God is on our side the entire time, and if he is for us, then who can be against us? What are we going to face that God has not already known? What was going to happen that god has not faced? If we can entrust our lives into our creator's hands, then whatever comes our way, we can just turn over into his hands and let him help us with it. That, no matter what it is.
Speaker 2:I think that's what joe kind of what he had to learn. I I don't like the way he had to learn it personally uh, that's just my opinion but I mean that's what he, that's what he had to learn. I don't like the way he had to learn it personally, that's just my opinion, but I mean that's what he ultimately had to walk away with. Because he's asking questions, he's calling God unjust and God's basically saying you know, you're not in a position to make that decision, that I'm unjust, and ultimately tells Joe we live in a non-perfect world and that's kind of how, why suffering takes place. This is a fallen world, it's non-perfect. But if we truly believe he's a perfect God, then we have to trust him and sometimes it's hard to trust without that conversation. So you know, job ultimately got his answers from God and I feel like it's difficult if you don't feel like you're getting those answers.
Speaker 2:In the same situation, maybe you're not at a boiling point like Job was to where God maybe is hearing you, but I think that's kind of the. What brought Job out of it was the fact that he got his answers clearly from God and was told to just trust me. And when you've lost everything. You have nothing left when you've lost it all. I mean, how hard is it to trust at that point when you have nothing else to lose? If you get the word from God to trust him, you have no other point. You have no other way to go at that point. So I think that's what took place with Job and again, I'm not sure his choices were what led him to his downfall, but he got in that situation. So he then had choices on whether he was going to trust God or not once he was in that circumstance.
Speaker 1:Chapter 42, verse 7,. After the Lord had finished speaking these things to Job, he said to Elphaz the Temanite I am angry with you and your two friends, for you have not spoken accurately about me, as my servant Job has. So take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you and I will accept his prayer on your behalf. I will not treat you as you deserve, for you have not spoken accurately about me as my servant Job has. So Eliphaz and Temanite and Bildad the Shuite and Zophar the Nephite did as the Lord commanded them and the Lord accepted Job's prayer. When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes. In fact, the Lord gave him twice as much as before. I love how, even though—you think Job was angry at God, questioning God at the very least.
Speaker 2:I think he could even say that Job also didn't speak correctly. Yeah, god just kind of showed him mercy because of how he went about things versus his friend.
Speaker 1:I agree. When I heard God say that, I was like, really he didn't say anything bad. It sure sounded like he was saying bad stuff. That's what I was thinking, but maybe it was the heart and intentions of the heart too. Maybe I don't know, I don't know what it was there that did strike me as peculiar. But I love how God even though him and Job didn't seem to be buddy buddies at the time, even though, like him and Job didn't seem to be buddy buddies at the time when God's saying gird yourself up like a man, you know, I'm ready to ask you some questions. Then he just turns around, though, and he says you didn't speak well of me, like my servant Job, did you know? You go and make these offerings and my servant Job will pray for you, and I think that's cool.
Speaker 1:Job never left God's side In his heart of hearts. I don't think that he left God's side. Maybe in his mind he was thinking out loud, and maybe he was questioning things. Maybe he wasn't doing it to everybody in the entire world, just these three friends, you know, and his wife. Maybe, too we won't even get going to his wife, because I don't want you in trouble, pierre I mean I am curious why she was the one that was left.
Speaker 2:It's like if satan like didn't touch her, like wait a minute, was she? She part of the problem. But anyway.
Speaker 1:Even paul had a thorn in his side. Paul had a thorn in his side too, pierre. So I don't know, but I just love how God looked at Job as still being his servant throughout all that and counted him as the one who was going to pray for his friends. I think that that was really cool, even though Job was obviously struggling. And then, michelle, as you know, job was restored and he received twice as much as he had before. And what a great example it had to be, not only to Job's friends immediate friends there but into all the land about him, because this had—I don't think this is a made-up story.
Speaker 1:This is something I was thinking about too while I was listening to it. Is this just a made-up story? Is Job just a made-up story? But once again, as we talked about in prior episodes, we learn names, first names, maybe last names, or at least their kind of genealogy, or where they're from, where they lived. We learn all these things. There's specifics about this. So I don't think this is a made-up story. I think this is a specific story and we actually get to see what's going on. If it's a play, we get to see what's going on behind the scenes too, with that spiritual realm of things and the physical realm of things so we can have things make more sense to us. But Michelle, getting all that stuff restored to twice the amount, that had to be a great testimony to all those people around him.
Speaker 3:Oh, I can't imagine that it wasn't. I mean, if I'm witnessing that and I see it, I'm going to be like, okay, I see he went through all of that, but boy is he blessed and so he's doing something right and, like you said, it's a great example yeah, we see it in life, yeah, we see it in each other, like folks down on their luck and hit rock bottom.
Speaker 2:And you come across them years later and you know, gosh restored them and changed their lives. So it's, it's good to see those moments. Sometimes you don't, and that's the thing. So sometimes there's not that Job ending where someone is restored and you start to question so why is that? Why didn't they get potentially restored on their own circumstances? But again, that's not for us to to be the judge of. But, yeah, it's good to see those those wins. When people get knocked down, everything gets taken away from them and they, they're, they're brought up again.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm saying god, god picks them up. And and it was jeremy camp he's lost the artist, lost his wife and you know the battle with cancer. And I know he's remarried now has multiple kids really big time Christian artist. So things like that happen in real life. It's not just a job story.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think sometimes we can perceive that someone has is struggling and really they're not like. And what I mean by that is I spent most of my life probably thinking that, like my brother, who was disabled, was struggling or or you know, had his own issues, and that you know why. Why did he have to be that way? And I remember very vividly the day that I found out I was pregnant for Olivia um saw a lady at a doctor's appointment I had to go to and she ended up being the first person I told that I was pregnant and she had a son who was disabled, but he was walking and talking and my brother couldn't. And I remember thinking, man, what I wouldn't give to have a conversation with him. And it was years later that you know, as I'm kind of reading through the Bible, I'm like, wow, Michelle, that's really selfish of you. Because my brother who passed away last week was truly the happiest person I have ever known and he is fully restored now.
Speaker 3:And I remember that when it hit me that I was selfish for wanting to have like that conversation with him, because if he's happy and God made him the way that he wanted him, if he could know how hurtful and cruel this world could be, or understand maybe his circumstances a little better. Would he have been as happy as he was? And I don't think so. So he was just such an inspiration. He was the biggest smile, literally, you've ever seen. And you know, smile through your suffering, smile through your circumstances. So I think that's a beautiful thing and hopefully that can be an inspiration to others, because he truly was and is still. So, yeah, smile.
Speaker 1:Smile, no matter what it. There's that one of those fantasy football ladies, pierre, that does that weekly roundup kind of the NFL. I think her, I think her and her brother. Her brother might have cerebral palsy or something and her dad is like runs with him on marathons and stuff like that. I think that's. I think that's the whole connection there with that as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, you just don't know what kind of impact that. I mean he clearly had an impact on people, and he did on me for sure, and it was. It was a beautiful thing to see at his service and and to hear all of the stories and things about you know this, this boy, this man who couldn't walk or talk, had this profound impact on people and it's, it's beautiful. So I can only pray to have that much impact.
Speaker 2:I think you're talking about less. I think I met her at the one of the hall of fame games and I can't bring her up because I don't want Michelle to get mad.
Speaker 1:Michelle, we are sorry for your loss. I'm sure I speak on behalf of all of the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep squad that's out there, I believe so we could say that for sure, and we are. All of us get touched by different individuals at different times in our life and they all have their purposes, and we are thankful that Job had his purpose in our life as well to give us strength whenever we are weak, and we can see that if we are good soldiers, we can make it through and God will be faithful to the end, no matter what. Pierre, we failed to tell anybody how to find us. We failed to encourage anybody to leave any kind of ratings or anything on the listening platform to help the show get out there a little bit more, to encourage others. Not for our sake at all, pierre, we haven't made a dime off this show, right?
Speaker 2:If not, if, if not, that's been by by choice. I still get like ad opportunities like a couple times a week, um but do they want me to talk in any of them?
Speaker 2:they, they do not, it's more wanting to play, you know, snippets of their show on ours so they can kind of probably increase their listenership. But it's all right, we're not doing that for that. We're doing that just to kind of talk through life and talk through the things that keep us up at night. But if you do again have any comments, suggestions, you can reach out to us at findingfaithlosingsleep at gmailcom. We're also over on the Twitter slash xmachine at Fighting Faith Pod. You can find us on any podcast platform. So feel free to leave us a review, leave us comments there. We appreciate anything you want us to touch on, anything you want us to ask. Definitely, shoot it our way and we will engage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we say that about the podcast platforms because you can share it with your friends on whatever you'd like to share it with, in hopes to encourage them as well. Somehow, some way, if we've done that for you, we ask that you do that for someone else.