Ever found yourself in a serendipitous moment that shifted your perspective on faith? Together, we share such a story of an unplanned church visit that blossomed into a profound conversation about authenticity in faith. This episode of Finding Faith and Losing Sleep takes you on a journey through the complexities and beauty of living a life aligned with Christ's teachings, despite encountering hypocrisy and judgment within the church itself.
Expect a blend of humor and depth as we traverse topics like the struggles of standing up for personal convictions and the art of shining your own light without blinding others. Our discussions delve into the essence of modern evangelism, the challenges of being a guiding light in the darkness, and how Jesus navigated his relationships with the outcasts of society. We challenge you to consider how to emulate this inclusivity, drawing on personal anecdotes and biblical references to spark a purposeful conversation on living in love.
Let's talk action, not just contemplation. We encourage you to engage, to reach out with your stories, queries, and reflections as we navigate this shared, sometimes Lego-strewn path of growth and understanding in faith. So whether you're here for the heart-to-heart discussions or the spiritual musings, this episode promises to be a candid look at what it means to faithfully walk through the rigors of everyday life. Join us, and let's explore the transformative power of these everyday faith conversations together.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
Ever found yourself in a serendipitous moment that shifted your perspective on faith? Together, we share such a story of an unplanned church visit that blossomed into a profound conversation about authenticity in faith. This episode of Finding Faith and Losing Sleep takes you on a journey through the complexities and beauty of living a life aligned with Christ's teachings, despite encountering hypocrisy and judgment within the church itself.
Expect a blend of humor and depth as we traverse topics like the struggles of standing up for personal convictions and the art of shining your own light without blinding others. Our discussions delve into the essence of modern evangelism, the challenges of being a guiding light in the darkness, and how Jesus navigated his relationships with the outcasts of society. We challenge you to consider how to emulate this inclusivity, drawing on personal anecdotes and biblical references to spark a purposeful conversation on living in love.
Let's talk action, not just contemplation. We encourage you to engage, to reach out with your stories, queries, and reflections as we navigate this shared, sometimes Lego-strewn path of growth and understanding in faith. So whether you're here for the heart-to-heart discussions or the spiritual musings, this episode promises to be a candid look at what it means to faithfully walk through the rigors of everyday life. Join us, and let's explore the transformative power of these everyday faith conversations together.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
It's time to wake up and pray up here. On the Fighting Faith and Losing Sleep podcast, I am, wes Easley, one of your hosts, and of course, I am always joined on this podcast by Michelle and by Pierre, a married couple from up north. I am from down south, so that makes me a southerner. That makes them a Yankee, pierre, michelle.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 1:guys know that you're Yankees.
Speaker 2:You could have said northerner, I mean, it would have still fit.
Speaker 1:Well, that's true it could have, but I've always liked the term Yankee and I don't mind being called. I would say that I don't like being called a hillbilly, but there's a little party or me like a redneck or something. I don't mind being called that a little bit. That means I'm out in the sun, that means I'm working, that means I'm doing things out in the yard a lot, and I think that's where the terminology comes from. From a redneck standpoint. I'm not sure where Yankee came from. I'd have to Google that in order to find out where Yankee derives from.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I know the New York Yankees. I remember singing Yankee Doodle as a kid and that's about it. I do like how you clarified that we're not always with you. You started with that. They're always with me and you're always with me on the podcast. So thanks for clarifying so we don't come off as creepers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're just in your little pocket.
Speaker 1:I'm always wondering where you are and I have a Michelle that appeared in my pocket Lock it in my pocket.
Speaker 1:Hey, but you are joining us here and we are a podcast just made for everyday people talking about everyday things. Sometimes it's controversial, sometimes it's not. We're trying to live our lives the best way that we possibly can, because at what point in our lives we were all lost. Here, michelle and myself I could speak for all three of us. We were all lost, but then we were found. We found a way that made our lives a little bit better, and so we try to share that with others, and we do that. One of the ways is through a podcast form, pierre, something that you came up with, yeah.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to talk through life and we're in a couple of live groups ourselves at least I'm in a couple, we lead one and just good conversations that take place that make you really think about your faith, about the Bible and just about life itself. And I thought why not do this in front of a microphone, as if we're having these conversations, if we're struggling with it, and what's going to stop others? They're probably going through the same thing, so let's talk it through and perhaps reach out to at least one person, and I think we've done that by now, so I guess we're targeting one more.
Speaker 1:And a big shout out to all of our friends in Jordan, isn't that, pierre? You told me that we are highly right that Jordan is.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Yeah, I got a notification. So Charitable is basically like a ranking website. They rank podcasts through Apple to Spotify, to a bunch of others, and all of a sudden I got an email alert. I still check the emails less and basically congratulations, you know, you're ranked in Jordan and I'm like, okay, we're probably 100 or something and I looked for like 23,.
Speaker 2:I'm like whoa, I mean we're nine and you know the Bible Recap was number one. I think Girls Gone Bible was number two really popular podcast. So to be in the top 25 was just spectacular. So thanks to our listeners over in the country of Jordan and I guess you said we were up to nine. Apparently it gives me like a tracker we were at rank nine at some point and our episode 22 actually got as high as number three over there, so that's just spectacular. So heartfelt thanks to whoever's listening over in the country of Jordan. We appreciate that.
Speaker 3:And it was so funny. Pierre brings his phone in to show me I was working and he opens the door and he like holds his phone out and he shows me and I was like okay, and I was like whoa, we're ranked. Really, I was like who's Jordan? And then I was like wait, you mean like as in the country?
Speaker 1:And I hope one of the things, one of the reasons why is because we do try to keep everything in somewhat layman's terms, I think, is how the show's been described before, where we're not necessarily trying to be theologians we try to talk about the Bible, we try to talk about Christ like things, we try to talk about those circumstances in life that pertain to the Bible and glean wisdom from Scripture. I guess is what we try to do, michelle, and so I'm glad and I hope that that's kind of the effect of it all. But, pierre, you and I were texting each other I don't know if that's what we call it or not whenever we do it on the X platform. How would people get ahold of us over there on X? How would they follow the show?
Speaker 2:It's at Finding Faith. Pot is our handle over there, and then we also have an email findingfafelosingsleepatgmailcom.
Speaker 1:So if people wanted to get in touch with us and they can kind of text you towards those by using that email and using the X thing, I was doing it on the X platform as well with you and then all of a sudden our little text message stuff started. It took a right turn and a right turn down. Uh, oh, lane is what I would call it, pierre, I don't know, because it became very I don't want to say heated. It wasn't heated, we weren't arguing, but we just have this kind of ongoing conversation about a couple of things and you just I could feel the passion when you were pushing the buttons to make this text message on X go through to me and I thought, boy, that's something we got to talk about on the show and you were right there for it as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we touched on a variety of topics. We had talked, you know, divorce, we mentioned some of the homosexuality stuff, and really what I was passionate about was just, you know what this episode is probably going to be about, and that's just being more Christ-like. I just feel like it lacks amongst a lot of so-called Christians. But I think that even falls on us at times. There's times where I'm not the man I want to be in my own household or outside in the world, and you know, that's something I feel like we really should be more passionate about. You know, we have these conversations about, you know, who we are and how we're changed, but we don't always, you know, present that person to others.
Speaker 1:My biggest question. I don't know which one of you two are wordsmith, because I'm definitely not a wordsmith. How do you spell Christ-like? Is that one word? Is it two words, with a little hyphen in the middle of it? What do you spell? How do you?
Speaker 3:spell Christ-like. I've always seen it with a hyphen.
Speaker 1:Yeah same here. All right, well, I just had to put that to rest in my mind. I don't know.
Speaker 2:So, even so, really cool story, as we kind of go into this. So, as the listeners know, as you know, wes, we have a life that we run and we meet on Thursday. So we're usually meeting actually right now, in this moment, but we have some schedule conflicts that we met last night and maybe halfway through, as we're Well, first of all, it was truly last minute that we met last night.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So maybe halfway through there's this couple that shows up and they just kind of walk in the church for a moment and they come over to us, they grab a seat and they kind of just pull up a chair and ask if they can listen. We're like sure, yeah, ask them if. Michelle, you stated we meet on Thursdays and last like minute decided, hey, let's just do tonight, let's do Wednesday night. Most people can be there. So I sent out a little group message to everyone saying, hey, we're just going to meet tonight at the church, so meet us there.
Speaker 1:Okay now time out. Let me Can I call time out. Just make sure that this is all set up right.
Speaker 2:You can't ask, you've already done it, so time out it is.
Speaker 1:Let me make sure this is set up well, and we did not talk about this before the show, just put it out there for the listeners we talked about. We did the text thing on to X last week and so we've been planning for the episode here and we were going to record. I think last night is when we recorded record and then you two canceled on me, of course, but no and you said our live group is going to meet on Wednesday night instead of Thursday night, so can we change it to tomorrow night? And of course we could. That was fine, but this is all something that we talk about on the show where it's beyond our control, right?
Speaker 1:And I tell you guys that I try to not worry about those things that are beyond my control, because when it's beyond my control, I try to go okay, god, you're controlling this. What's my part in all of this? Let me just I'm going to go with the flow, I'm going to look for what your desires are and I'm going to try to carry out whatever your wishes are through my little hands. That's kind of how things go in my life and that's how I try to go with the flow and not stress out about things, not worry about things, and the podcast is one of those instances as well, especially when you try to record with people who are all over the United States, like we do at times. So that's how the story is. So you guys go there Last minute, you're holding your class on a different night, and then these people walk in. So this is getting juicy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we're halfway through. We were halfway through our meeting.
Speaker 1:Well, then came in late.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh way late.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so they just pull up and share their ass. They can listen to lecture, and I initially thought it was a new member from last week because I didn't get to go last week. But the way Michelle was looking at me I'm like no, she doesn't know who these two people are.
Speaker 1:You guys really should lock the church doors, by the way.
Speaker 2:We should have, but I'm glad we did.
Speaker 2:I'm glad we didn't either. So finally, time in. They are from Portland, oregon, where they came out, and they just moved to Indiana in December, just started attending the church and I know the husband was 61 years old and he finally started to talk and he basically dove into the fact that his wife saved his life. He was at a point where he was facing opioids that he was dealing with and just other things that he was battling in life in he felt God brought his now wife into his life and he shared some stuff on it His son that had passed away and it was just really, really heartwarming. And so we're like wow, and we're getting the tissues out. People are crying.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know Michelle's crying. I know Michelle's crying.
Speaker 3:Watch it.
Speaker 2:Wes. This couple is just sharing their story to our group and we're all new to them. And they're like, yeah, like this is like a date for us, you know, like a date. It's like, yeah, you know, church is a date. You show up and you dress up nice and you hear good music, you may get to dance. And we're like, okay, well, what led you here? And I was like, well, we were told that there was a Bible study here tonight. We got an alert and I'm like, okay, that's great, but we don't meet on Thursdays. We're not that Bible study. That's not us. We didn't send out that order.
Speaker 3:And there wasn't one. I mean, there was a women's group that was meeting, but there was not a Bible study.
Speaker 2:So and this was their first attempt at just trying Like we wanna go to the church. We saw there were cars here. Something told us to come on this night and here you are. Here we are.
Speaker 1:Something told us meeting the alert right. What's that Something told us to come on this night meeting the alerts right.
Speaker 2:Well, the alert is about first Wednesday, which is the first Wednesday of each month, which is actually next week, yeah. But yeah, they show up and we're like, yeah, we don't usually meet on this night, but we happen to be here tonight. You happen to show up, we have this connection and really good conversation. It was just really super cool. But how that ties in is so. The husband multiple times gave us a reason why he's trying to continue to get better, and what he kept saying was I just wanna be more Christ-like. No, and I looked at Michelle and we knew what the topic was gonna be on this. So the fact that this couple shows up to the church on a night that we don't usually meet to our live group shares their story, and her husband's focus was to just be more Christ-like is how he wants to kind of move forward on.
Speaker 3:I can even count the number of times he said that either.
Speaker 1:He's y'all dropping to me One of those coincidental accidentals right, I think I just termed up a phrase there Coincidental, accidental says what that is. That's very, very unique and it's great to see how things like that work in our lives. And I don't get shocked by that stuff anymore. I don't get amazed by it anymore. I do to some degree, you know, like I'm like, well, that's cool, you know, but at the same time I'm not like, yeah, you're just. I always think that God sometimes just enjoys playing with me a little bit, you know, toying with me and having fun like that. So that's a cool story, that's a great story. That's a great story.
Speaker 2:It's pretty hard. I couldn't stop thinking about it. I got home and I'm like we weren't supposed to be there, like we don't meet that night, and he kept talking about being Christ-like. That's what we were already talking about in our pot. It was just-.
Speaker 3:Well, and you talked about you need to lock the doors.
Speaker 2:Typically, the doors are locked Like yeah everybody gets in and we lock the doors usually, but I didn't know like there was a women's group taking place, I didn't know if they could get in, so I just left it unlocked and sure enough-.
Speaker 3:So another anomaly A couple comes in and finds us.
Speaker 1:FYI, what we do at our church whenever we have meetings like that on those nights, is we have a man stationed at a door, or maybe two doors, even that people usually come in. So we just we have security, which is one of our own men that stand at the door just to kind of give a presence there. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And the door is locked. We just give a presence to unlock the door. Well, we'll keep people out, but at the same time. So a cool story. Now that has a little bit of ramification to what we were texting about or DMing about. I'm gonna go-.
Speaker 3:You were texting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just say texting. I'm just gonna say texting is the same thing. But we were texting about Pierre and you were passionate because it seemed like somebody was doing somebody wrong. The conversation was somebody doing something wrong. That's what I remember of it. I have a short memory and I don't remember a lot of things. I just remember, like me sending you a video, and it was a video of a debate between Barack Obama and somebody that he was running against. Whenever it was back in Illinois times too. I mean, it was in the 90s at some point, I don't even know, it could have been 2000s, I don't know, but before he was president, it was silly. When he was, I think it was Senator in Illinois and you just went off on the tangent and I was like holy cow. I didn't mean to open up a can of worms there, but I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't remember that topic, but yeah, you caught me at a unique time and I remember the video and I'm just like I feel like this is a conversation we have to have because, again, I feel like there's a lot of people that claim to be something that they don't necessarily portray in their real life, and I mean we'll just say Christians Like. I feel like there are times that Christians, which the first part of that is Christ, aren't Christ like, and I think it's a good topic because I know I fall into this bucket myself at times in life. But we talked about other episodes. I really feel like one of the bigger turnoffs for those trying to find faith or interested in their faith and growing. That is how those prove those that claim to be in the church, claim to be loving, claim to be like Christ or are far from it.
Speaker 1:All right. So it's kind of like it's your attitude, right, it's our attitudes, not only our attitudes towards those who are in the church, but also those who are outside of the church. And what are we gonna do with those attitudes? And let me ask you guys this Michelle, maybe I'll direct this question over to you Does it depend on how that person is reacting? Let's say, we run up on somebody out there in the streets out and we're shopping at Walmart or something like that. We run into somebody and they're just not acting very nicely. Is it up to them to be able to bring the Christ-like out in us, or do we just need to exhibit that towards them, regardless of how they're acting?
Speaker 3:I think it's that we need to do it, regardless of how they're acting. And here's the thing. Let me just preface all of this by saying, first of all, I have no idea what the two of you were talking about, so this is gonna be really interesting. Pierre and I talked the most on this podcast, but one thing that I do wanna interject really quickly is that, based on what Pierre just said, I will say that the reason that, as far as I understand it cause I was young, but the reason that I've always been told that we stopped going to church when I was a child, is because my dad and mom got really fed up and frustrated with the hypocrisy that they were witnessing, like if somebody came in not dressed to the nines and hearing people talk about look what they wore to church and look who's here and why are they here.
Speaker 3:And I think we've talked about that, we've touched on that before that church should be for everyone, and that's the point. It's for the sinners and the poor and the broken, and it's not a place for perfect people, because none of us are perfect. But, to answer your question, unless I think that it is our duty to act Christ-like no matter how someone is acting. We need to still show grace and love, and that is not the easiest and I will say I too failed that and I hate that. I do, and sometimes I beat myself up over it, and even not just in public but in private, like even my interactions with my daughter or with my mom and dad, or with Pierre or my siblings. It's tough.
Speaker 1:So I remember when, before I became a Christian, you'd have to catch me. I was always a people pleaser, I guess, but you'd have to catch me on a good day in order to, like, go out of my way to help you. I would just assume, knock an old lady down and take her wallet instead of helping her across the road. You know what I mean. It was one of those things where I was a people pleaser whenever I was working. But if I wasn't working I never found a way to. I never looked for any way to help somebody outside of being at work and being an employee at some place. You know, that just wasn't what I did. I was always to myself, I always kept to myself and I just I didn't want anybody to bug me and I didn't want to bug anybody. And that was kind of Yankee in me. You know, Now that I'm a southerner, I feel like I'm always trying to be helpful a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Maybe I've been taught a little bit better than what I was taught up North. But also as a Christian, I kind of take that work ethic with me always wherever I go, at all times. Now, that doesn't mean I'm perfect all the time, but I would like to think that I'm never rude or beyond rude. Maybe I am and I don't know it. Maybe I cut off somebody accidentally trying to get to something that I want to get to, but I don't think I am. I think I try to make sure that I'm always yielding to people and allowing them to go in front of me and stuff like that. If I'm in a store, but I think down here, I'm always or now anyway in my life I'm always having that same attitude of I'm on the clock for God, I'm always working for Him, so I'm always trying to find ways to help out others along the way, if that makes any sense to you.
Speaker 3:I think that's a great way to put it, that you're on the clock. I mean, have that mentality.
Speaker 1:Now I was gonna say, pierre, that doesn't always mean I agree with everybody and how they are acting, you know, but that doesn't mean I treat them any. That doesn't mean I treat them badly because of how they're acting. That doesn't mean I treat them badly, pierre, because of how they're dressed or maybe how they speak. It doesn't mean that I treat them or go out of my way to treat them rough, and actually I look for ways to encounter them, to somehow try and shine a light in their life that I think needs to be shined, because maybe they are just in a dark place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the balance of what that looks like is where the struggle is. So, like a part of our conversation I know we talked about Michelle's been divorced before. There's a couple in one of my life groups that that's the case. Like the same situation, the wife's been divorced before and remarried to who her husband is now and their previous church kicked them out. They knew she was married, they knew her previous husband and they knew that who she was married to now was not that previous husband, so they respectfully asked them not to attend their church anymore.
Speaker 2:When you think about what the church should be, how is that Christ like? How do you reach those people? I think part of our conversation on Twitter slash X with the DM was a note that came to me from someone in the homosexual community and their thoughts on Christians. They said that the meanest, most narrow-minded people that they've ever encountered all have one thing in common they're Christian, and they made the note that most Christians play the role of Pharisees rather than Christ. This was someone that also grew up in church, et cetera. I won't go into that whole conversation, but just reading that you have to think. So how do we get to this point and how do we fix it? And I'm not necessarily saying you have to accept certain lifestyles, but how do you not come across as the meanest and cruelest to something that you might just disagree with?
Speaker 3:Well, and Pierre and I did have this conversation because he showed me the text and my reaction was the first thing I said was that's really sad that we're not, as a Christian community, not loving and acting like Jesus, because Jesus was not here with the Pharisees, he was here with the sinners, the broken. They're rejected, and he loved them. In spite of that and the second part of that was I also and if I'm really brutally honest, I really struggle with where is that line? Because I also believe that we're supposed to hold up what the Bible says. And so, as a Christian, where is the line between holding the line of what the Bible says versus being loving? And I think that's the key is, we are first called to love and be like Jesus, and if we go beyond that, it's a judgment thing and it's not for us to judge.
Speaker 3:However, this is where I personally struggle, like how do you stand up for your beliefs? I mean, I don't know. I hope you know what I'm trying to get across here Like there is a line there that's a gray area, and that's where I struggle, as just a human being is always in that gray area, whether it's in my walk with God or in work Whenever there's a line that's kind of shaded. I like to be in control of things. That's just who I am, and so I struggle when it's outside of my comfort zone and it is in that gray area. So I hope I explained that well enough.
Speaker 1:But it's a great conversation that we're having right now. It takes it takes us a little bit to get warmed up, it feels like, but we're having a great conversation right now. Let me, let me. I'm going to go over to 1st John, chapter two.
Speaker 1:Okay, my little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin and if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous, and he himself is the propitiation for our sins. The only reason why I want to read that is because propitiation was like the first big word I ever learned in the church and I just love saying the word propitiation, Isn't that? It's a cool word. It sounds cool, doesn't it? It's fun. Yeah, it was a propitiation for us. That means that means he's the one you know, he's the gift for our sins, he's how he.
Speaker 1:So if I ever needed a propitiation with my wife, some people would bring my wife if she was angry at me or whatever. Some people would bring their wives like a dozen roses. Well, that would be a propitiation for your sins against your wife. Right, here's the dozen roses. Take this on behalf of my sins. I am sorry for what I've done. Right, For me, it was a dozen donuts. If I got a dozen donuts instead of a dozen roses, I was in man. That was a good smooth move.
Speaker 1:Can I please have a dozen propitiation donuts please? Is that what I need to bring home to my wife? But so Christ was that propitiation to God. He says here, I am their offering. I am what is standing between you and their sins. I'm giving myself up for their sins. So he was the dozen donuts. I don't believe that that has ever been done before saying that Jesus was a dozen donuts. But you guys understand what I'm saying. Please take that in context, I guess.
Speaker 2:He had me Krispy Kreme, because those are the best.
Speaker 1:He was hot Krispy Kreme. He was hot Krispy Kreme, a life of fun.
Speaker 1:Literally. Yes, there you go. He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those who are the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. The one who says I have come to know him and does not keep his commandments as a liar and the truth is not in him. It's going to get good here in a second. I got to read verse five, though. But whoever keeps his word in him, the love of God is truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. Now the perfected part. I think we're all a work in progress, myself included, you know. So it takes a little bit to get to that Jesus level of perfection. Can we say that Absolutely?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, I feel it ever happened.
Speaker 2:You have to work towards it.
Speaker 1:And speak for yourself.
Speaker 2:But I have to think of it myself.
Speaker 1:Verse six, the one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked. So we're seeing some good goals here, laid out by John and the way John said it at first there in verse one my little children. So this is. I picture it, old gray hair John, with a big gray beard, you know. And he's trying to tell us how to live our lives. And he says in verse six, there, that you ought to walk in the same manner that he walked, but beloved, I'm not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I'm writing a new commandment to you, which is true in him and that you in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. The one who he says he is in the light and yet hates his brother, is in the darkness. Until now, the one who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. We are supposed to be the light of the world, right? Yes, and we are supposed to shine that light in the darkness.
Speaker 1:Now let me tell you something. If you go walking through my house right now, my eight-year-old has Legos laid all over the place. I mean literally, literally. Somehow the Lego room got set up right next to the front room windows over there and she has just been over there playing. She is now becoming a Lego engineer, I guess, building house after house after house. But while she's doing it and searching for her part, she just that's not the one I need and discards it, discards it, discards it and there's Legos all over the floor. Because she doesn't put the Legos back in the tub and she just puts them all over the floor. And in the dark those things can hurt. In the dark, life can hurt, sin can hurt. And let me tell you something If I step on one of those Legos and I'm right there in the middle of hurt and I'm yipping and yapping and jumping around with one foot, you know like that and just angry as can be at the Legos, you know how they are and somebody turns on a light and says can I help you? All I'm going to do is look at them and growl no, you can't help me, just put up these Legos. You know, I'm just going to. You know you're not going to hear me be very kind at that point because I'm hurting. I think it's the same thing in life If somebody is in the middle of that hurt, in the dark, and you go trying to tell them, hey, what can I do for you?
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, let me help you, let me help. No, no, no, that's what you do. You try to shine the light for a while and you just be there to see if you can help. You start looking around for the thing that hurt them and start trying to pick up the Legos. You start trying to pick up the pieces for them without them even knowing it right. But if you just take a blinding light in somebody's eyes, that's already hurting. That's just going to make things worse. So I think, as you know, we're talking about all this stuff. I think that the first steps in all this is to build that relationship, to be a light to people who are in the dark, so that then, michelle, we are being friends with them and then we can maybe start talking about those spiritual matters that may be concerning for their souls. I think that that's the steps and I think that that's the process in doing that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so too, and I mean I'll be the first to say like I struggle with judgment myself sometimes, like Pierre and I go round and round about stuff sometimes because I find myself being judgmental and I have to. I'm faster, I'm quicker to recognize it these days, which I'm very thankful for, and I've come to the place recently where I've realized, through Pierre and I's conversations and through our sermons and my Bible study, that you have to guard your thoughts, so it's not even necessarily what comes out of your mouth but what you think. So I've really really been trying very hard to keep that in mind and to make sure that the thoughts that come through my head are pure and that I'm not just speaking things with my mouth or feeling them with my heart, but actually coming together as one my mind, my soul, my thoughts, like all of it. Because I think it's super important and I'm truly struggling with that these days, like we really quickly when we had the topic on divorce, I struggled because one of the things the pastor said and I had to talk about it with our life group last week and I was brutally honest that hey, I'm really struggling with this one because, if I heard him correctly.
Speaker 3:He said that I can be forgiven but I'll never be favored by God, and I was like whoa hold up? So, anyway, that's a whole nother conversation. And it was just what my point in that was that just because we as a trio here have these conversations and and you know, pierre and I lead the life group and we have this podcast it does not mean for a second that we don't go hold on what does that mean? And that we don't struggle to and like have our frustrations with things that we hear and that we have to grapple with. So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there really quickly. But what, I think that you're right in that how we, how we deal with those things, is really important and to just be there as a support for people as much as we can, even if we disagree with them.
Speaker 1:And Pierre, have you ever seen that group and I don't know what church it is or where it is from or anything, I think they're in Texas or so I could be absolutely wrong about that where they'll go out and and they will just pick it, like in front of some kind of place and just talk and their and their picket signs are all like you guys are going to hell, I mean that's. They just sit there and they pick it and they just yell to people and I mean they're very forceful and in their, in their condemnation of these folks, without ever having a relationship with them. They're just, they're just calling them centers and just telling them that that they're, that they're damned for life.
Speaker 2:I'm not familiar with that, but I know the practice like I've seen it on street corners and megaphones etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and okay, so there's. I don't know if there's a time for that or not. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Did Jesus ever pick it?
Speaker 1:I there were. There were times when he went into the temple, though right.
Speaker 2:Okay, and yeah, we're done the table Okay.
Speaker 1:And and had a whip and he just started chasing everybody off and tell him that they were all sinners and doing that kind of stuff. He was doing that in a very forceful manner.
Speaker 2:Why, why, why was he doing that? What was? What was his boiling point?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not sure what the boiling point was. I know that he said it, and maybe this is what you're talking about that this is my father's house and you shouldn't you know this. Don't. Don't turn it into a den of thieves.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay. So he's upset about what's happening, you know, in the temple, what's exchanging taking place there, but when you look at human beings that he interacted with outside of the temple, who did who did he turn away? Nobody, nobody. So if we're calling ourselves Christians which you know translates technically to Christ like who, who should we be turning away? Nobody, nobody. And that's I mean it's not happening regardless. I mean it's not just you know certain communities, certain contexts, it's you got different churches, different people that turn away different type, and my thought process is how do we overcome that? I mean we mentioned, you know, jesus didn't come from the Pharisees. There was a point where he was having dinner with a Pharisee and after that dinner was over, you know a woman comes in which, if you know anything about kind of back then that's kind of a process where, like, the party is getting started. I'm guessing, you know, as a prostitute. She lays down at his feet, you know, rubbing her hair perfume, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2:It sounds like that party's getting started, but but you know, as as all the Pharisees are in shock and kind of disgusted, you know Jesus doesn't react the same way. We got to 10 commandments and 10 commandments talks about, you know no adultery. The woman at the well, she was an adulterer. How did Jesus treat her? So we have folks that are clearly sitting that she, she, clearly broke a commandment or herself, that's why she's at the well, you know, when she was at that time of day. But how did Jesus react and treat her and change ultimately her life in that moment? And then think about how we, in different scenarios but same similar scenarios, treat others with that same approach.
Speaker 2:And I honestly think about I don't know if you've seen the movie is called Jesus Revolution, based off a true story out in the West Coast. But ultimately a bunch of hippies decide to follow you know God, follow Jesus, and start attending this church that does not allow hippies. And you see a bunch of the prominent members, the, the donors, basically say this this isn't going to work Like you invite them in here, we're leaving, and it became that pastor's job to have a sense of OK, how do I react to this? Do I let my biggest donors go? You know? You know, maybe deacons of the church? Or do I invite in these outcasts that don't look like us, don't act like us, don't behave like us, that are hungry for Jesus? And ultimately he went with the hippie route and his whole Jesus Revolution exploded.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard about that. I haven't necessarily seen that. There's been other movies like that too that are similar. But yeah, you know, you would hope that the more mature would understand what the bigger goals are, and that is to help people who are in the darkness. You know, by being a light to those people. And you can't do that if you're if you're I don't want to say the doors, because you and I have talked before, we've said it before many times on this podcast it doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to church. That should be one of those ultimate goals for you, but to start that relationship with Christ and God, sometimes going to church is like one of the last steps somebody has to take. You know it's not the first step. Sometimes the first step is, like we've talked about before, it's just praying, it's just opening that door, just acknowledging the name. You know.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's true, but I also feel like in certain situations, there's like the blind leading the blind with some of us. You talk about, you know, being the light for the darkness. We have to stop being the darkness ourselves.
Speaker 2:Hey, everybody, you know there's people, but there are times when we think we're the light and we're not, and we're, we're trying to fight darkness with darkness, and that's not going to get the job done, that's not going to do what we're, what we're called to do, which is, which is what? What do we call to do above all else?
Speaker 3:Love one another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love God and love each other. And you know we talked about like our purpose before. I think I've even tied it into song, by Elevation Worship, with our purpose, but I've actually kind of swayed a little bit because I think that the above all else is our purpose in life, it's just simply love God and love each other. I think that's ultimately why we're here. I think that's why God made the creation, I think that's why we have our own kids, is the hope that they can, you know, just enjoy life, get to experience life, ultimately find a relationship with God and and love those surrounding them. And I feel like it might be that simple and we're just missing the mark.
Speaker 1:After Jesus fed the 5000 and you know people, people went away and everybody was fed. And people went away and says in verse 18 of Luke, chapter nine it came about that while he was praying alone, the disciples were with him and he questioned them. He said who did it? Who the multitudes say that I am? And they answered and said John the Baptist. And others say Elijah.
Speaker 1:One of the prophets, one of the prophets of old, has risen again. Is what people are saying. And he said to them OK, that's who they say, but who do you say that I am? And Peter answered and he said you are the Christ of God, you are the sent one, you are the chosen one, you are you. You are the one from God, not any of those Replicas, you're not any of those four shadow wings, not John the Baptist, you're not Elijah, you are the real deal, right?
Speaker 1:Hmm, this is after they've seen him do all these different miracles, when they're kind of understanding things, when they've been with him for a long time. And and he answered them and instructed them not to tell anyone. This right, his time wasn't up yet. Is the reason why he still had things to do. He said the son of man must suffer many things but he and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and raised up on the third day. That's that's weighty Guys. That's that's pretty weighty To know that that's going to come and you have to go through with it, right.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm for us. We, we are those people now who have to take losses in order to see get a bigger victory for God. And that's what. That's what Jesus was doing here at this point. He was taking losses.
Speaker 1:I'm sure he wanted to tell these people I didn't come here just to feed you and he had to start that relationship with them right, he had to provide those Earthly needs so he could give them the spiritual needs that they really didn't even know that they needed. And If we shut people out and we turn away people and reject people Before we can ever give them the spiritual goodness that they need, then we didn't do our job, jesus said. Jesus said If anybody wishes to come after me which we do, right, you and I, or the three of us we do we wish to come after him. Let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me, for whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is it if a man was profited, if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? We are to take up that cross daily, but we are to be crucified with Christ so that we can live with him daily and and others can live with him as well. It's, it's one of those real tricky things when, yes, we are to what, love the sinner but hate the sin. But we got to love that sinner first, you know, before we could tell that we hate that sin, and I don't know that we would ever necessarily say hate that sin.
Speaker 1:I think about my children, and I have two daughters. I have to be delicate with my words. I Haven't always accomplished that and then I've had to go back and apologize for the things I said when I didn't accomplish that and work and I weren't and I wasn't delicate with my words and Trying to teach them a lesson or trying to tell them they're wrong about something, you know I, it's always works out better whenever I approach them or my wife or anybody else, with loving kindness first and then Shifted into a conversation where they I'm trying to point out where they're wrong, but I try to. I try to approach that with even an open dialogue. This is why I think you're wrong. What do you think about that? And and so I.
Speaker 1:I think that that's what we have to do with others, is what we got to approach it like that. We got a week. We can't be harsh with our words, we have to be loving, kindness with our words. And then, after we build a relationship with that Individual or those people or that group or whatever it is, after we have that relationship with them, all of a sudden, the conversation We'll be able to turn into hey, why do you think that this is wrong? Or why do you think that this is right? It'll just not. The conversations will naturally occur.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's a good, a good approach. You have to build a rapport. I mean, none of us just want to be have someone come at you with, hey shame on you, you're wrong. Like that just puts your defenses up immediately, whether even if you agree with them. Like you, at that point you feel like you have to defend your position and and want to prove your point. So I think I think you're right. West.
Speaker 1:Well, I know I'm right, Michelle. It's just something that I'm trying to convince you of eventually.
Speaker 3:No built that rapport so.
Speaker 1:The whole, the whole text messaging on X was Pierre trying to tell. Figure out how he can convince you that he's right as well, michelle.
Speaker 3:Oh, he does that all the time, it's okay.
Speaker 2:That's about being right. I can't ask about followers. That didn't bother me, but I mean I do. I do what I think about. So we think about all the miracles that take place in the Bible, like how many of those don't take place if Jesus isn't open and loving mm-hmm. Think about the All the miracles we don't have If he just turned his nose up at someone or told them they were. They were doing wrong or they did wrong in their past so he they needed to fix themselves before they could come to him.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things I was thinking about since we had that conversation was how did he he treated the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the scribes? He treated them so much, so different. Then he treated like the normal, average, average, everyday person. I'm sure there were Different, you know he did.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think he gave them equal opportunity and they chose to react to him differently than normal people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear what you're saying there and at some point to me he already knew where the conversation was going to go. Maybe he already saw what their hearts were like, or whatever. Maybe it's just me turning the TV on in my head. Like I've said, I see how he's doing that. Maybe I hear the tones of his voice differently than what they were necessarily directed, but that's something that I thought I was like. Ok, there you go. There's a reason to read the Gospels again. Wes is to look at how he treats the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the scribes. See how he treats them, and does he treat them any differently than just the common person?
Speaker 3:Well, and here's the thing, like I think that's human nature because we see these movies and even as much as I love the chosen right and I do, and it's helped me to bring the Bible to life there's still someone else's interpretation of it and so that gets in our head and then when we read it we see, because we've already had that impression, then we can apply that to what, what we're reading Right.
Speaker 3:So I think sometimes it is super important for us to do our best to set that aside and really approach it in a different manner. And the reason that you stay in reading your Bible daily and maybe rereading a passage two or three different times a week or whatever like in your lifetime However often that is the reason we read it again is because we have different experiences that we've we've had since we read it last and we may receive it differently. So you know you could read something for like the fifth time and be like whoa, wait a minute. I didn't see that last time or I didn't understand it that way because I hadn't had the experiences that I have now. So I think it is important to put that aside sometimes and not have those preconceived notions about things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, do you think this episode was a little more Christlike, or did we fall short? How do you think, pierre?
Speaker 2:I think it was good conversations. I don't think an episode is going to be Christlike. It's going to be what our actions are and what the listeners actions are beyond this this episode. But hopefully it puts some, some thoughts into the listeners minds and hopefully doesn't in our own minds. So even you talked about how to approach your, your daughters and stuff. I'm like, yeah, I can, I can be better at that myself. So it's a situation Go ahead.
Speaker 1:So that's a plan of action. So we get we treat our loved ones in our house maybe a little bit differently, right we could, maybe, because I like to leave sermons whenever I hear them or something you know, whenever I'm reading the Bible. Okay, what's my plan of action after this? You know what I mean? I'm just a plan of action kind of a guy, so I want to know what my plan of action is after this episode. I guess one of them is to try to do the. I like that. You said that. That. I said that about my daughter, so I don't forget that. I'm writing it down.
Speaker 2:I think your plan of action should be above all else. It should be all of our plan of action.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, michelle. What about you? What do you think a plan of action was from this one?
Speaker 3:I actually agree with PR on this one. I think that it sounds so simple to just say that should be our plan of action, but man, to put that into action is sometimes very difficult when it goes against what we believe, how we feel, maybe even our experiences that we've had bad experiences in the past from certain things Like to just be loving, even if we don't accept it Like it. I think it's. It's so easy to say and so very difficult to do. So I do agree with him and I think that is just a constant. It's going to be a constant battle and a struggle, some more than others, but yeah, I think, I think that is the takeaway in general.
Speaker 1:I have two plans of action. One I'm going to get the vacuum cleaner and suck up all those Legos laying all over the floor. That's one of the plans I'm going to do, and number two is tomorrow. No, it doesn't matter what day it is, because whenever you listen to this episode, you can. You can maybe take the same plan of action. I'm going to get uncomfortable and I'm going to meet somebody who I don't know their name, but yet they look kind of scary to me. Okay, and I say scary, I just mean like they're out of my comfort zone.
Speaker 2:You know they don't get like wrong or something.
Speaker 1:No, no, I mean because I'm in a lot of stores all the time and I get to see a lot of people and I'm I'm all over the place. So there's a lot of strange characters that come. I'm going to find out their name. You got it. I'm going to find out their name. I'm going to introduce myself to some somehow, some way, and I will find out their name as well and we'll see. We'll see where the conversation goes from there. How about that? That's my plan of action. And I say scary, I hope. I hope you understand. I just mean out of my comfort zone.
Speaker 3:Yes, scary for you. Yes, that was scary for me.
Speaker 1:I scared, I'm scared.
Speaker 3:If you are a dog, you're scared of the vacuum cleaner.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's what I'm going to try to do. So I appreciate you guys spurring me on to good works here on the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep Podcast, and we will encourage you the listeners out there in Jordan or wherever you are listening we will encourage you to try and leave a review. You can slap the stars around or you can do whatever you can do to leave a review on the podcast listening form platform You're listening to us on. That would be great as well. That would be a plan of action, and the only reason why is because we love to hear from you, pierre. You have we still have yet to have a question and answer session from questions from the listeners or anything like that, but I am still hoping for that one day, I hope so too.
Speaker 2:I've even asked a couple of folks that I know listen and they're like you guys explain things too well for us to have questions, which was nice, but I'm like we still we still got to get Westies questions because he's he's itching at it. So, yes, if you can't email us finding faith dot losing sleep at gmailcom, if any question you may want us to ask, you can also hit us up on Twitter. Slash X at finding faith pot.
Speaker 1:Yes, or leave a comment on whatever listening platform you like to listen to the show on that would work as well and tell us your plan of action. From this episode or any of the past episodes. You can always go back and listen to those archives. I think that those episodes will always be pertinent. I don't think that we were necessarily time sensitive on those things, so I think you can always glean a little bit of wisdom from any of those past episodes and I look forward to future episodes as well. And you pray for us and we will pray for you.