Ever wondered about the mysteries tucked inside the genealogy of the book of Matthew or the cryptic narratives of the Bible? Get ready to take a deep plunge into the biblical accounts of Jesus' birth, his upbringing, and the pivotal role played by John the Baptist. We'll tackle topics from the enigmatic Wise Men to the controversial 'Slaughter of the Babies,' probing the challenges of recording history during that era and its implications today.
Imagine the daunting power dynamics when a new, superior king is announced. Let's ponder over the reactions of King Herod and the Wise Men, drawing parallels to modern leadership dynamics. We'll also discuss the strong influence of John the Baptist, the symbolism of baptism, and the courage it takes to challenge religious leaders - a theme as pertinent now as it was then.
What about personal prayer and denominational baptism? Don't worry, we've got that covered too! And as we commemorate this journey with over 7,500 downloads, we express our deepest gratitude to you, our listeners. As we continue to share the wisdom of the Bible and its application to our lives, we extend an invitation to you to engage with us. Leave your questions, share your reviews, and keep the faith alive.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
Ever wondered about the mysteries tucked inside the genealogy of the book of Matthew or the cryptic narratives of the Bible? Get ready to take a deep plunge into the biblical accounts of Jesus' birth, his upbringing, and the pivotal role played by John the Baptist. We'll tackle topics from the enigmatic Wise Men to the controversial 'Slaughter of the Babies,' probing the challenges of recording history during that era and its implications today.
Imagine the daunting power dynamics when a new, superior king is announced. Let's ponder over the reactions of King Herod and the Wise Men, drawing parallels to modern leadership dynamics. We'll also discuss the strong influence of John the Baptist, the symbolism of baptism, and the courage it takes to challenge religious leaders - a theme as pertinent now as it was then.
What about personal prayer and denominational baptism? Don't worry, we've got that covered too! And as we commemorate this journey with over 7,500 downloads, we express our deepest gratitude to you, our listeners. As we continue to share the wisdom of the Bible and its application to our lives, we extend an invitation to you to engage with us. Leave your questions, share your reviews, and keep the faith alive.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
It's time to wake up and pray up here. On the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep podcast, episode number 19,. Title to Be Determined. I think that's the best thing to do is title to be determined. We're going over Matthew again. We've kind of been working our way through the beginning of the Bible, genesis, and then jumped over into the New Testament and Matthew. So we're going to talk about Matthew 2 a little bit and then 3 a little bit, kind of do an overview here. I think this was a good direction to take it in, because everything in the Bible seems to be pertinent nowadays and it could be applied in many different directions and areas, no matter what the headlines are out there in the world or anything. We could just kind of go with the flow.
Speaker 2:It's true. It's true, the thought process is to kind of just jump back and forth between the Old Testament and the New Testament and just kind of talk through the circumstances in the Bible itself and relate it to today's society, today's world, because that's ultimately it's today that we know that keeps us awake this night and helps us to kind of go through this whole Finding Faith battles. But I also want to just point out I'm proud of you for getting the episode number right. I think that's the first time that you've actually got the number right. So congratulations, Wes, Proud of you.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, 19 is the legal age for a lot of things. I don't know why I just 19 stuck in my head. That is Pierre. He is the executive producer extraordinaire here on the Finding Faith and Losing Sleep podcast and we are always joined by his wife, michelle, at GoPackGo411 over on Twitter is what her handle is and Michelle. We got to make sure we point out early on in this episode early on, that we are not theologians. I was totally butchered at word and everything theologians. We are not some big, studied, astute kind of people on the Bible and we haven't gone to school for a million years. We're just regular, everyday people just try to work out our salvation while we're here on this earth.
Speaker 3:So true, wes, and I think that's like we've talked. It's really helpful for all of us who do have such different backgrounds to just kind of be able to talk through things and to, you know, understand that it's okay to agree, to disagree sometimes, and we still love each other and that's important.
Speaker 1:That is important. And, of course, pierre, the executive producer. All the hate mail goes over to him, or all hate Twitter stuff goes over to him at Peewee31, over on Twitter, and listen. I just want to get this out of the way. I would like to thank everybody for their votes and I do accept this award for having one of the most accomplished podcasts that has shown up on the scene here on whatever listening platform you're listening on. So I extend a gracious thank you to everybody who voted and gave me that award. I should do that right away, right, pierre?
Speaker 2:You should not. We actually didn't make the finals of the award, but it was nice to be nominated, so we do thank those for nominating us. We did not make the final slate, but the only reason we were even a part of it is because some of you listeners went out and nominated us. So a big thank you for doing so, from the bottom of my heart and I'm sure, from the bottom of theirs as well.
Speaker 1:No, no, it really seriously. Thank you for voting for us and nominating us and everything I just wanted to give people an update on some.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, wes, it's not a vote, it was a nomination. Don't forget Technicalities, all right, technicalities.
Speaker 1:That's what I said, but we do appreciate that and I know we're doing Old Testament, new Testament stuff. You know what I would love to have? I would love to have a question, a question episode, where listeners either send us a question via email or over on Twitter or even on the listening platforms that they listen to it on. It just takes a couple of seconds to leave a question or to leave a review, whatever listening platform it is. It helps us beat the algorithms a little bit and gets the show out there a little bit more, which is always, you know, I want to say it's important. Maybe the show will help somebody, maybe they'll be able to hear something that we say and it'll be an encouragement to them. So I want to encourage people to leave those comments, leave some kind of review, leave something it just takes a couple of minutes to do. Should we take a moment of silence and allow people to do that right now, pierre?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what a moment of silence is going to accomplish on a recorded podcast.
Speaker 1:It works for you. Well, I mean, if we could, just we could talk about nothing which is almost what the show is about anyway and then just allow people to go out there. They won't miss anything. If we just kind of meander through the, tell them what the email address is, that'll help.
Speaker 2:You can hit pause Findingfaithlosingsleepgmailcom Now. You're usually authorised this early on, so appreciate your pages there. I can also hit us up on Twitter at findingfaithpod. So on Twitter at findingfaithpod, email is findingfaithlosingsleepgmailcom.
Speaker 1:And we're on iTunes, so you can leave it there on iTunes. So, listener question. I want a listener question. I think it'd be. So iTunes, we're on the Google podcast, right? We're on Google podcast.
Speaker 2:We're on all directories. We're on Spotify, iheartradio, we're on all of them. Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm not on all of them but that's cool, you're part of Weezy.
Speaker 2:So we are, we are there, we are not.
Speaker 1:You can find me over on atlophonet on Twitter. I'm on atlophonet on Twitter there now. That gave people time. It gave people time to leave a review. If you still haven't read the review, just hit the pause, leave a question, leave a review, whatever you want to do, so just unpause it now. And we are picking that up in Matthew chapter two. How about that? That was good, was that not a good segue? He says it Fantastic. We talked about Matthew one last time with all those little funny names in the genealogy, and I know I surprised both of you by being able to have kind of a podcast about the genealogy of Jesus Christ. But I thought it was fun and I think it's cool to be able to go back and look at those Old Testament stories and to find out all those stories that were in Jesus' lineage. And look, it doesn't stop there. It keeps going in Matthew chapter two with the visit of the wise men, and those guys came. Now, how many wise men were there? Three, oh, just three.
Speaker 2:My impression is three.
Speaker 1:I think that probably. Well, I think it was at least three, yes, but it could have been more. These wise men, I think that they had money, you know what I mean. Like some of them, even there's old stuff that thinks that maybe they were kings to some degree from far off countries and that they traveled, probably with more than just the three of them, crossing the desert, going thousands of miles on Campbell's backs or whatever, however it was. But there was probably more of them. There's just more of them. So there could have been multiple people going that direction. But isn't it weird? We talked about the star a little bit and how that star was there. What do you guys think about people's horoscopes and stuff? You ever go over there and read what your horoscope's going to be, or anything?
Speaker 2:I haven't done that in a while. I think I did so in high school and things along those lines. But there are times where it felt like things were a little bit accurate and there were times where it was way off, and so don't really get into that anymore. I think the Bible even speaks to horoscopes and psychics and things along those lines as well. No, not too much. I know I'm a Gemini and I know it's like a twin sign and that's about as far as I go these days.
Speaker 1:You know what else. You know what I am, Pierre.
Speaker 2:A mess.
Speaker 1:I'm a Gemini also. Maybe I'm your twin and y'all. That explains a lot. I'm your twin.
Speaker 3:Olivia is also a Gemini and I'm a Virgo, so it's fun yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I read a study one time and I tried to find it again. I couldn't find it again. I read a study one time where a college professor, when talking about this topic, would give each of the students and he turned it down turned the piece of paper down in front of the students and he said to flip it over to read their horoscope. And they were like, oh, that's me exactly. You know, all of them were like oh, that's me exactly. And then he said, okay, now pass it over to the right. And so they passed it over to the right and things were changed just enough in the in it to not be exactly like that, you know, like like the original copy that was laid down in front of them. And then they were all like, oh no, this one is exactly me. And he just kept doing that and he was just trying to show that you can be very vague in kind of horoscopes and different things like that, but make it sound like that's exactly me. You know that's talking about me and my day and my life and everything on my past. So horoscopes and all that is kind of tricky, tricky stuff Makes sense to me. Did you know that? Maybe this is. This is cool.
Speaker 1:I was doing a little research on the whole mad guy, mad guy, magician, the whole wise man thing. Casper, I'm going to put you this name both, both the czar and me, quark. Do you know who they are? Nope, they were. They were possibly the three wise men, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I figured, we were bringing them up. That's what you were going to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was going to give you like, a, like a question or something like that to see if you could guess who they were before we even started, and then I blew that. I totally messed it up. I was, I went off in a different direction, and do you know that? Maybe? Maybe I'm not saying it is Okay, nearly, they're getting used to it. Okay, really, that's what history tells us, that's what Lour tells us, that's what possibilities are. Wouldn't that be weird to look at that and to see? Maybe you know the, the, you know it just could be anybody's skulls, I guess. But still, it's a little different.
Speaker 2:I mean there's, there's history throughout, though, and so that just kind of brings up. You know, a good point is you find like different type of archaeology and things that take place over the years that you know uncover. You know things, and even when things being uncovered and you know folks assuming something, something or something's not, you know, there's just a lot of historic evidence throughout the world that probably is still left uncovered, and so the same could be the same for these magi and I know like in your explanations. So I went to Aladdin I don't know if you're familiar with Aladdin, the Disney cartoon, but I think about when he kind of comes in as Prince Ali. You know there's a bunch of different kings, as you stated, coming in the to meet the princess Jasmine. So now I'm just thinking in my head love magi being like a prince, like Aladdin, like Prince Ali coming in, and camels and elephants and all these things with their majesty. I guess you could say.
Speaker 1:Now they first went to the Kings palace right, king Herod's palace because they were looking for a king. They were kind of following what some of the Old Testament stuff was written about, the new king that was going to be over the Jewish people, over God's people, and so they went there and they asked about them and of course we learn about Herod's trickery and all this. And I love the reaction of the wise men and how they went to and what they did. And I think there's several different reactions. One I think you can see Herod's reaction and all this, because he went and he started asking what the Pharisees, the chief priests, about this and they told him what the scripture said about everything.
Speaker 1:And then, whenever that happened, you had those chief priests going and they were kind of indifferent to the whole situation. I don't know if they were indifferent because they were afraid of what Herod would do to them if they all of a sudden got excited because the new king was maybe in the area in the vicinity and maybe there was going to be a new kingdom that established there. So maybe they just they looked indifferent to me. All right, and Herod of course. Look whenever I turn on the old television in my head when I open up the Bible and I read this story, he kind of looks nervous and mad and angry all at the same time. And Herod had a terrible reputation of being that kind of guy who did not mind spilling a little bit of blood. Right, that's just what Herod was like. So I see those two different reactions. But what about the magi? How are their reactions in all this, do you guys think?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure you're right that some of it was caution for one, knowing who Herod was and, ultimately, the fact that he was asking all these questions because he felt threatened. And I think part of the part of the belief for me when it comes to Jesus in the Bible is about how these rulers and those in power and control react to the thought that they might be overthrown or that there might be another king coming that's stronger than them. And I think that plays out here where he's asking all these questions for his own benefit. And if you're a magi, I think you would kind of pick up on that some and you would be nervous because again you mentioned, like him, being okay with having blood on his hands in those situations. So now you're being questioned by the same person, you would try to limit your excitement and even limit the amount of information you provide, because what's the motive? What's this king going to do? How's he going to react? Because clearly he's bothered by the thinking that the Messiah is coming and on his way to being born.
Speaker 1:Really, what do you think, Michelle? What did the wise men do? How did they react towards Jesus?
Speaker 3:Well, first, I think that Pierre is probably like you guys are probably right. If you think about it, like, if you know that somebody has a different opinion than you, sometimes you kind of temper your words as to what you're going to say, or maybe you won't bring up certain topics. So if you're being questioned about it, like, I think he would be very careful, especially if it's somebody in power, right. So I mean, I don't know, I think that's tough, I think they had to have been ridiculously excited, but I don't know, it's hard because you think about it in times. Now, I think, if and when Jesus were to return, now we all want to think that we would be so excited and, you know, just not have fear there and want to share that with everybody. But would we really and I mean I think that really begs the question of us to really look internally and ask ourselves that very question?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'd be shared with everybody If I knew like he was coming. If you got 15 minutes, I don't know if I'd be sharing it with everybody or cleaning out a closet somewhere. You know what I mean. I don't know. No, I'd be sharing it with everybody. But yeah, so I do too.
Speaker 1:I think that they were excited. Not only did they seek after that star, but they went to it. You know, they didn't just look for something, they actually had actions behind the looking, and they went to that star, Probably at great cost too. You think about how far they traveled there's great cost by the lives in danger at some different, you think so crossing some kind of deserts and mountains and all those things, and then approaching King Herod and finding out it's not his. So now you get a little nervous in that.
Speaker 1:And even the religious leaders that Herod had talked to about all this, the wise men, didn't get discouraged by their reaction either. They kept pressing on to find where this little king was, and so they kept going. And then you think about what they did to whenever they finally found Jesus which, by the way, I think when they found him he was probably a toddler, because you think about Herod. He asked the age and then he ended up, you know, putting to death all the little boys two years and younger in Bethlehem. So you would think that Jesus was not just a baby whenever they arrived on the scene, but he was probably diapers, I imagine. One two years old, that's still diapers, right, that's diapers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it depends on the pie train back then.
Speaker 2:But I think all your talk is the whole baby concept is what we're talking? Because you got the manger and all those things, yeah. But I mean, who knows that age range, like a baby is a wide range where there's still a baby, whether it be a newborn, you know fresh out the wound or whether it be you know a year or so in advance where they're still a baby. But yeah, they could still be in, you know, your diapers or loincloth, whatever you want to say there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, loincloth, I guess Pampers loincloth is coming arriving.
Speaker 2:I'm guessing like Pampers are one of the things you know you're guessing.
Speaker 1:I was trying to. I was trying to think of something.
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's why I said loincloth. I don't know if it's a loincloth, but that's. There's not going to be Pampers back then.
Speaker 1:I was trying to think of what kind of diapers they use back then, If they even use diapers. And then when you said the potty training thing, I'm like yeah, they probably just like went out behind the shed a lot or something. I don't know what you do. What do the kids do? They take wool. They take wool from a sheep, Well.
Speaker 2:I know. So what? The following of the star and just the excitement. I kind of think it like the amazing race.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've seen like that, I'll be sure where they're basically pushing for usually for like a monetary type prize or something on those lines but the things they go through and push through to try to win that race and so put put into the situation the circumstance that you believe a Messiah is on the other end of that, the child, the person that's coming to save you, humanity, your people, I mean you push through to witness that, to see that I feel, and I think that's where the the magi's kind of was, whether it be desert, you know the heat If you're doing it for monetary value. If there's something or someone that you think's truly about to change you know your life for the better. You're going to want to witness that.
Speaker 1:And I think that goes to even today, like when you first get that little taste of the Messiah, you know what I mean. When you're like I think I'm going to change my life around, I'm going to do this. Well, it's good to think about it, but if we want to learn a lesson from the wise men, they didn't just think about it, they acted on it, you know. And then when they finally found it and I'm just going to put this in a church environment, right they find a group of people that they have an interest with. They arrived and then they entered. You know, they entered into this place wherever Jesus was, they entered and then they kneeled and bowed down and worshiped. So I could learn these lessons from the wise men here, how they worshiped him.
Speaker 1:And then they even brought something to. They brought, and these were physical gifts that they brought. But it doesn't always have to be physical gifts, it doesn't have to be monetary, it doesn't have to be anything like that. You can enter, you can worship God and you can bow down to him and offer yourself. I think that's the greatest thing that you could offer. And we see this by their example a little bit, as we read this story and see how they did those things, and we could be encouraged to try and do the same ourselves a little bit more. Maybe find a place where he is, go in, enter, worship and give, give yourself to whatever that is.
Speaker 3:And our most recent sermon at church was on prayer and how important that is, like your prayer life, and how important that is to have a relationship with God, that if you expect God to show up in your life and to speak to you, it's not going to happen if you don't have a prayer life with him.
Speaker 2:and to build that relationship, yeah, I mean because often the conversation like who in any world or any life can you can communicate with if you're not actually having a conversation and you can talk about your spouse Like, if you are not talking to your wife, things aren't going to go very well If you're just giving her the silent treatment you know, not taking the time to have that conversation with her. I don't mean myself to have those situations because I honestly don't like to talk. I'm not a big talker, but you know it gets me in more trouble with hot water when there are certain things I won't talk to talk through because I'm not willing to have. You know the communication, and when you look at prayer, that's what it is. It's an open communication, you know, to the Savior. And so if you're not taking the time to have that communication, what makes you think you're going to? You know, hear him, hear him in return, what makes you think he's going to talk back to you if you're not even taking the time to talk and outreach him?
Speaker 1:It actually goes better around my house whenever I don't speak to my wife for some reason. I don't know what that is. There was a lot of speculation that in history here at slaughtering the babies in Bethlehem is not really a historical fact, and so I was like huh yeah, because I Googled it just to see like how many, how many babies was it? You know how many things were there. I know it fulfilled the scriptures is kind of what Matthew says and that's what the Matthew is all about. Is Jesus coming in and fulfilling the scriptures, entering the king has entered, kind of a thing to fulfill all the prophecies of the Old Testament. And there really wasn't any historical stuff for Herod doing this. But I think there's good reason for that.
Speaker 1:After doing a little bit more research, the population around Bethlehem was probably only 1400. So there wasn't a lot of population there, and speculation is that there may be, if only, maybe, if it's only like 14 babies, 14 kids. Now, to me that would be a lot. If it was my child, don't get me wrong. All right, don't get me wrong, but as far as a world encompassing thing goes, the mortality rate of children back then wasn't very high. So like the death of 14 children or so however many it was probably just wasn't historically recorded because it was almost like an everyday thing. So I say that just because I saw some some stuff where people were like, oh see, that's how you know the Bible is not true, because there's no record of that in history and really it just seemed commonplace at that time for something like this to happen. Plus, with Herod's reputation, it really wasn't a surprise to anybody that something like this would happen or that Herod would do this.
Speaker 3:Okay, wait for clarification sake. You said mortality rate wasn't very high, but you mean it was typical thing. What's that you said that children yeah, that it wasn't very high but, then you said that it's kind of it would have been kind of a typical thing.
Speaker 1:A lot of children passed away. Did I say that?
Speaker 3:right, okay, I got you now. I just wanted to make sure we were clear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and I'm glad you listen, because I don't listen when I speak but there were a lot of children passed away during that time because it was back then. You know, it was just back then, so there wasn't as much clean drinking water. There was a lot of accidents, different things like that that happened and occurred. And, like I said, herod was just a loose cannon, so it didn't surprise anybody that he would do something like this, so maybe it just wasn't recorded. I just thought I'd throw that two cents in.
Speaker 2:Oh, and even so, like part of the, the obstacle with things this far back is like things that we use to record just didn't exist. We don't have, like the news outlets, we don't have, you know, cell phones that all have cameras and stuff on it. You know certain positions, occupations. They weren't, they weren't, they weren't a thing. And so how do you, how do you go about kind of saving history or or even transcribing history, when those things hadn't come into existence?
Speaker 1:existence yet, no that's great, great point, all right. So they, they went to Egypt. They ended up in Nazareth is where Jesus kind of was raised, I think, and and grew up there in Nazareth, and so that's it's cool to see. He was fulfilling like he was a. He was a Nazarene. So you know, nazarenes were some of those people who didn't cut their hair.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he practiced Nazarenean. I don't know if that's where I just make up words, I don't know if you practice it long here. And we talked about his parents before, but they didn't drink and stuff like they didn't do any of those things. So he grew up around those kind of people though you know what I mean Like those. Those were the, those were his surroundings, and so I think about who did who did Jesus grow up around, who? He grew up around some pretty righteous people. It's pretty cool to be able to think about who he grew up around, compared to who I grew up around, I guess, and I appreciate if I grew up around because they made me who I am.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there are some some rough around the edges then as well. Like throughout history, you have good and bad. You know folks have been sending throughout the beginning of time, ever since the Garden of Eden, so I'm sure there were, there were still, culprits there. They may not be mentioned much in the Bible, but I wouldn't say that that Jesus didn't still go through some of the surrounding hardships that we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would think so too. Matthew leaves off right about there, I would want to say around the age of toddlerism. I don't know what toddlerism is, but he leaves off there and then picks up around when he was what most historians believe is around 30 years old, right, and he picks up with his cousin, john the Baptist. Now, john the Baptist is not the John who wrote any of the books in the New Testament. He's not one of the apostles or the disciples or anybody like that. This is John the Baptist, who is Jesus's cousin, and I think what was it? Mary was related to Elizabeth is what it was, and Elizabeth was John the Baptist's mother and Mary, of course, was Jesus's mother. So that's how they were kin. That's what we say down here. I say kin up there in Indiana.
Speaker 2:No, I've heard kin yeah, kin kin folks. So yes, I've heard it. I say no.
Speaker 3:Pierce says yes, I haven't heard it, it's just not typical.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's not true.
Speaker 1:What's the TV? Yeah, is it? What's the TV inside your heads? What's the appearance of John the Baptist to you guys?
Speaker 2:Well, honestly, most of my images now come from the chosen TV show. It helps me relate because, honestly, I didn't watch a lot of the older, like 10 Commandments and all those type of things. They just kind of bored me, if I'm being honest. So, being kind of tied into the chosen and enjoying that show, I got the image of that actor that plays him. So there's a longer hair, longer beard. You know, little bit crazy. It comes to the message there, but that's just kind of the image that goes for me. So if you're curious, look up the chosen and John the Baptist there. And for all the listeners, that's the one that comes to mind for myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what I have to say, like for me it's the same, because you know I'm here and I've talked about this before and I think we've even talked about it on here as far as the chosen goes, and we'll just throw a shout out to them, but the before, for whatever reason, like if I read books, my brain just automatically tries to put into a picture what the characters look like.
Speaker 3:Or if I'm on the phone with somebody and I've never met them, my brain automatically tries to form a picture of what they look like. But for some reason, like in the Bible, I've never other than Jesus, I guess, because of all the pictures I'd seen my whole life. You know, cool Jesus, I never really tried to form pictures really in my head of what the disciples or anybody really looked like. And then all of a sudden, along comes the chosen and even though I'd seen so many other, like movies, you know, or Christian based things, none of those characters really stuck. But all of a sudden, you know, watching the chosen, it's brought those characters or those people to life for me and help to create this picture and to put a picture in my mind, and I've really appreciated that because it helps to make it a little more relatable. So I think Pierre probably feels the same way. But for whatever reason, those, those images have really stuck and it's appreciated.
Speaker 1:That's cool and I think that that's the image I get to, like a rough and tumble kind of guy who lived off the land, his food was locust and honey and his clothes were camel hairs what the Bible says. So it's not necessarily something that is extravagant and he just lived off the land, kind of thing. You know, you think about somebody's appearance like that and I don't know what he, what he appeared I'm just telling you what the Bible says. But he had to be such a good speaker, such a powerful speaker, because people came out to see him and they were persuaded to be baptized by him and really all he kept telling them was repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. You know, he had that. He had that, that time period that he was making the path straight.
Speaker 1:For when Jesus came on board to kind of preach the same message as what John was saying, he did it in a different way. And John the Baptist, though the way he said it, when he saw the Pharisees and Sadducees coming one time he called him. He said oh, you brood of vipers, your snakes in the grass, who in the world told you guys to come out here? These are the religious leaders you know. So this guy's got some gusto about him. I think that's kind of cool whenever you think that.
Speaker 1:But he says to him who told you to come out here for to be baptized, you, brood of vipers? Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore, bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance, and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves we have Abraham for our father. I say to you that God is able to raise stones up and to make these children to give him children of Abraham, which is kind of cool, because it was important for those people, to Jewish people, to be children of Abraham, to be kind of known as that, and it was kind of their badge of honor kind of thing. We're children of Abraham. And he's saying look, if you don't sit there and repent from these things, all the things that you're doing wrong, god will just look at this stone and raise up children for himself. And it's just the words. He had, the powerfulness that he had whenever he was talking to those people and he didn't mind trying to persuade religious leaders to do the right things.
Speaker 2:Which I mean it takes. It takes guts, and I mean even in today's society, I think that would that would take guts to do so with some of your, your bigger religious leaders in today's world. I mean, everyone's human, no one's perfect, and you know they're. They're up there sometimes preaching, you know, to focus on laws and rules which you know Jesus even spoke about himself. And so who, who could be confident enough and boisterous enough to kind of have some of those conversations, to kind of put them on blast, to use a slanger type term. And so I just think about that today and like kind of what that would look like, and you can just almost kind of picture someone just being boisterous and having followers of, just curious, who is this person that's willing, you know, to to not back down to some of these religious leaders but also still speak, you know, of repentance and things on those lines that they also speak about, but oppose them at the same time?
Speaker 3:Truth and love, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this goes to a baptism discussion, I think, because of course he's baptizing, you know, and I came out of a denomination at one point in my life where they taught baptism for salvation. And it's tricky because I would I'm going to, you know, steal a phrase from here and there around, but it's probably a phrase that we've always, that a lot of us are familiar with, where baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace, right so, and you're getting baptized to show the world that. But in this denomination I was it you're baptized actually for salvation, like if you weren't baptized, you weren't saved, period period and maybe even an exclamation point, all right. And when I was, when I was young and impressionable, I thought, okay, yeah, that makes sense, because there was a lot of scriptures that do talk about baptism and baptism now saves you over there, and what 1 Peter or 2 Peter says baptism now saves you and a lot of the messages that the apostles had ended with baptism and you see a big baptismal services afterwards whenever they ended up preaching the gospel or anything like that in the book of Acts. The apostles mentioned a lot.
Speaker 1:But here was the question, as I kind of became a little bit more seasoned Christian and look if baptism, if you got to be baptized to be saved, do it. You know, if it bothers your conscience, if it's keeping you up at night because you aren't baptized, do it. You know they just do it because I do think baptism is important, I do. I think you have to be baptized, I really do.
Speaker 1:I think that if you're saying I'm not going to do that because God, but if God asked you to, you should do it right. You should show the outward sign of the inward grace, if that's the way it wants to be phrased in whatever you know realm or this denomination that you're in, Do it because it is something that God has encouraged. Even here in John the Baptist days, we see Jesus getting baptized. We see people getting baptized all throughout the New Testament and there's something special about that moment. It's kind of very similar to the wedding right, where people are making a commitment to each other and you're making a commitment to God and it's putting yourself in a vulnerable state for somebody that has done a lot for you and put themselves in a vulnerable state as well. What do you guys think?
Speaker 3:Exactly. I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head Wes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, once in a while it's definitely an outward sign and even if there's not a big audience, like it's a a commitment to yourself, to God, in my opinion, like regardless of who the spectators are, whether there's a bunch of people around witnessing it or if it's just you and the pastor kind of walking you through the baptizing itself, it's really important. It's a declaration I don't know the word I'm looking for but you're basically is making that choice outwardly to get baptized. I think John does a good job of kind of prefacing. He only does it in water. There's someone coming behind me that is gonna do it baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire and all these ordeals and I think it's important to kind of prepare the way. And John kind of had a really big part of that.
Speaker 2:And I often think of like concerts almost sort of speak. So when you go to a concert you tend to go mostly for the headliner. You wanna see the main artist, the main event, but leading up to that there are some other acts that kind of get you warmed up for that main event that's to come. And I think that's what the role that John kind of played he was, that opening act that got you warmed up, got you loose, got your vocals ready, got your dancing feet a little bit ready, got you loosened up for the main event to come, which was Jesus. And I think we gotta appreciate some of those opening acts a little bit more in our lives, that not just from a concert standpoint but just in live changing standpoints. Those people that kind of plant the seed and kind of start that foundation that help us grow into the main event in our own personal life.
Speaker 3:I think that's a good point. I mean, if you think about it, there are many things in life, like you said, concerts, but like movies, there are previews and even in like, typically in relationships, you have other relationships that help you see what you should shouldn't do in a relationship, what did and didn't work and things you can work on on yourself. And even once you're in your established marriage, like, there's still things that you recognize okay, this might not be working in my relationship. So I think those opening things are really important and like, even if it's just you're from childhood, like, you have your parents typically most people, not everyone but oftentimes you have your parents to help you with all of those opening things to get you to your main event of living on your own. So I mean, I agree with you. I think that those things are important to help you form who you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do too. I think one of the things that I don't wanna say bug me about baptism nowadays, but it's that there isn't a lot of importance put on it Like, okay, oh, you wanna get baptized? Okay, we'll do it in a couple of months. You know, let's strike while the iron's hot. That's kind of what I have a feeling about whenever I think about it. I wish we wouldn't put it off nearly as much as maybe traditionally we've gotten accustomed to. Well, okay, we'll do it. We'll set up the filming for your testimony before the baptism at two months from now. So you got time to write it down and then we'll overview it and we'll see what it is and we'll kind of go through it. I'm not gonna say it feels rehearsed, but it kind of feels rehearsed. It's not like the old days where somebody would decide to change their life and then after church everybody just walks down to the river and baptizes the person or something. There was a genuineness about some of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, shout out to our church because they still do that. Called the river, called the river. But they have, like, set dates in place. But, honestly, some of the most amazing days are just spontaneous baptisms, where someone fills the spirit and we have a tank ready. It's ready at all the times and there were times where, like services like we got three services at our church that we go to and there was a time we were working the door and just spontaneous baptisms kept happening. There were like 10 to 11 in one service, to the point that the third service was late, which was pastors like who cares? Oh well, you're gonna have to wait because lives are changing right now.
Speaker 2:So I do appreciate the fact that our church does a really good job of still allowing that spontaneous baptisms to take place and I think it just moves others. When that's the case as well, like you stated, it can tell it's not rehearsed, there's something moving in them. So why not now? Why not do it right at this moment? And I mean, you've seen it throughout the Bible as well. I can't remember who was in the carriage, but they got out of the carriage and whoever got in there with them kind of taught them what they were reading. Maybe it was Philip and say, hey, there's water right there, let's do this now. Boom, let's do it now. I don't hesitate because tomorrow's not promised. The two weeks that you have scheduled isn't promised, so do it while the doing's good.
Speaker 1:I guess you can say it was Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, you got Philip right. Boom, look at me go.
Speaker 1:It's good, and don't ask me why. I know the Ethiopian eunuch, it's just a name that has stuck in my head right there and I think about that too. Like the waiting period there. I'm not comfortable with waiting period. I'm glad Now. See, it was Thursday.
Speaker 1:We had a gospel meeting, and so on a Wednesday night the gospel meeting, I think, ended on a Thursday at the church and the guy had asked me some questions personally and stuff, and I was sitting there thinking about them. I decided that Wednesday night that I was done. I was done. I was done with the old West, I was going to be a new West, and so I actually prayed that night and had my first conversation with God in a different way.
Speaker 1:I'd always used them as a bailout project. You know what I mean. Like, oh, please don't let me go. Oh, I promise I'll never drink again. If you just oh, you know, just that kind of thought process is what I always did. If you help me pay my bills this one time, I'll never. You know, just stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't like that this time. It was an apology, it was an apologetic prayer, it was a sorry for doing all this stuff. I shouldn't have ever, you know, and it was just getting all those things out open between me and him. I wasn't running from him anymore, it was between me and God. And that night I mean honestly that night I remember it it was clear as day. And so the next day I went to church. It was a gospel meeting, so I was kind of used to this going on. And the Wednesday night was late, I was late at night and stuff. So the Thursday I said all right, gospel meeting, I'm gonna get baptized, I'm gonna get baptized. And so we have. You know, the sermon was there, the invitation song is what we call it, invitation song and I walked forward, I brought I was so proud that I brought my comb because my hair was gonna get wet, right.
Speaker 2:So I was gonna be able to comb my hair so proud.
Speaker 1:And then, one of the things I didn't know our baptism, baptismal place was broken. It was broken and it's old water. So we had to drive 35 minutes down some old country roads to go to the nearest church that we had a key to or something I don't know. I was a new fella in all this stuff. We had to drive 35 minutes down country roads to get there and, I'll be honest with you in hindsight, I was scared, because baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience. So if I was baptized in this denomination, I was going to hell and I didn't wanna go to hell anymore. Yet I had to drive 35 minutes between here and there to get under water and I was like you know in hindsight, I'm sitting there going wait a minute, uh-uh, that wouldn't happen. So I asked questions like to some educated people, like okay, what would have happened if a big 18 wheeler chicken truck were to come over there and hit me in my lane and I died? Would I go to heaven? That's a good question, right, mm-hmm? Well, and this was the response. This was the majority of the responses I got. Well, you know, we have a merciful God who knows where your heart was and knows what you were trying to do, and so I think that he would be merciful. And I'm sitting there thinking, huh, what if I would have died the night before, you know, in my sleep, after I've said that prayer.
Speaker 1:So I was just thinking about, you know, the baptismal part and how baptism now saves you and the necessity of it. And I do think it's necessity. I'm glad I did it the night before or the night after, because it was something that I felt energized to do and it gave me energy to do other things and to talk to other people. So I'm glad I did it and I made that commitment and I didn't feel like it was a spontaneous thing or anything like that. It was just it was the right thing to do, because that's what God had asked me to do. So I don't know I wanted to put that out there a little bit. Maybe somebody struggling with whether or not they should be baptized and why they should be baptized and the reasons that you should do it, I would say to make it a spontaneous baptism on a Sunday, just to trip people out. If they say let's wait two months, say nah, I'd like to do it now. Just see what people say.
Speaker 3:That's what I would try, if you're ready.
Speaker 2:That's right. It's your baptism, not theirs, though. If not, then find someplace that will do it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, what do you think about the whole fire thing that baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and fire? What do you think that's all about? I?
Speaker 2:don't know. I think people honestly go to the physical fire of like a burning, but I'm not sure that's what that's speaking to. When John is kind of speaking with that it could be like an internal fire, I think, and just like a burning inside to be changed, you know, kind of burning away the old you for the place and room for the new you to take place. Obviously the Holy Spirit, you know, is an advocate that we know now is, you know, come in and can live within us. So I think part of that at fires is not a physical fire in my own mind, but to kind of burn away some of the the old, unclean parts of yourself in order to make you new.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I never. I never thought of it like that really. I always just kind of think about Acts, chapter two, and the apostles getting baptized there with fire from heaven and the tongue sitting on top of their head as a fire and stuff like that, and I think about the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were imparted on them and how they were able to do miracles there in the book of Acts and from what's recorded and stuff. So I kind of look at that, I see it. I see it that way too, with the Holy Spirit and stuff that was breathed on them by Jesus and stuff like that. So that's kind of how I?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, that's good. What about the baptism of Jesus, michelle? When you look at the baptism of Jesus, anything just jump out at you that you look at and you go, wow, that's pretty cool that that happened.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think the overarching thing is just for all of us to realize that you know, like you said, if somebody has questions, that they should be baptized or not. Like you said earlier, even Jesus was baptized right Like. So if he saw the importance of it, why shouldn't we? So I think, first and foremost, that's the thing that sticks out to me is to say you know, jesus saw the importance of it, he understood why it was necessary, even in his life, and he was perfect. So I don't know why we would think that we are the exception to that rule.
Speaker 1:So I like it where Jesus comes down to him from Galilee to the Jordan River. I mean we have from other the Luke's and everything there, and Mark and everything where John the Baptist, if he saw Jesus, he just said behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Speaker 1:You know, that's just how John is. He's just going to talk about his cousin like that. But Jesus came down there to be baptized by him and John said whoa, whoa, whoa, slow your role. I think that's exactly what he said. He said look, I need to be baptized by you and you come to me. And Jesus said to him permit it. This time is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. And so then he permitted him. It was to fulfill Jesus' righteousness and we were talking about a sinless man here and he's trying to be obedient to God and I think he's trying to be a good example as well, possibly.
Speaker 1:But it was a must do thing, it wasn't optional, it wasn't something that if anybody could have said later or hey, I don't need to do that. You know, I'm Jesus man, I want to get baptized. Come on, I don't need to think about all this luscious hair. How's it going to all get wet. It's going to kind of be an inconvenience. I'm going to get my feet wet, the sandals here, the dirt, it's just going to be a mess. I just don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:But look at the sound that we talked about two different parts of this smaller section. But what happened when he came up out of the water, like, for me, that's the, that's the moment that sticks out. The heavens open, you know, and saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and the light on him and a voice from heaven said this is my son, whom I love. With him, I am very well pleased. So that's a, that's a wow moment for me and I think about myself and for me, like you hear the stories, you hear like folks kind of given their, their testimonies as they're about to get, you know, baptized.
Speaker 2:But the part I enjoy the most watching it, and what I enjoyed myself is coming up out of the water, just getting lifted up out, and I just imagine that that's the, that's the reaction that that God has for for everyone. This is my son, this is my daughter. With them, I am pleased. There's like a being pleased that we went through, you know, that baptism and that we're, we're willing to change our lives and try to change our lives around. You know, for him that's just, I know, that's just a special moment for me, knowing that Jesus got that. Yeah, we're not Jesus, but I feel like we get that same type of Joy and celebration from Jesus when we go through it ourselves and that he's he's very pleased with our decision.
Speaker 1:No, I absolutely love that. You said that, because it is. It's a refreshing thing to be baptized and the people have a glow about them you know what I mean Like there's a serious glow about them and and whatever. I was reading this this time when it talked about the Holy Spirit descending on them like a dove and I was thinking about people who get baptized. I did, I thought about the.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's a relief, I don't know if it's a clean conscience, like you know, the Bible does tell us it's a clean conscience toward God, and I don't know if that's what it is, if it's the commitment, if it looks like a bride on their wedding day to some degree. There's just, there's just a clean cleanliness about it all. And in Romans, chapter six, it even. It even tells us and I'm going to read just for a minute here what shall we say then? Starting verse one Are we to continue and sin?
Speaker 1:That grace may increase?
Speaker 1:May it never be.
Speaker 1:How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Speaker 1:Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death?
Speaker 1:Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death in order that, as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too might walk a newness of life.
Speaker 1:And if we become united with him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin, for he who has died is freed from sin. Now, if we have died in Christ, we also believe that we shall also live with him. I just love that part of Romans, romans chapter six, where it talks about baptism and how it is a death, a burial and a resurrection, as close as we're going to get in our physical form, you know, and it's, I think it's more of a spiritual form, but it is a representation of that death of Jesus in the ground, in the tomb, and then coming out a new person, and so it's a wonderful illustration of that, and even our Savior Jesus experienced that from his cousin John the Baptist.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's special and I've got to witness a few myself be on stage for one or two and you're just so proud of that person In that moment you can sense how proud they are of themselves. I've just ultimately gone through with it and there is a sense of just renewal being renewed and you know, I feel like that that can only come from something bigger than us to have that feeling.
Speaker 3:So true and, like I know, this will be very shocking to you and anyone who knows me, but it makes me cry every time.
Speaker 1:I knew it was going to be. So I guess we didn't make it through a whole episode without Michelle talking about crying. Hey, we did.
Speaker 3:Oh, we generally.
Speaker 1:So we need to take another pause here to allow people to review and comment and leave a question. Do we need to do that again?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I just think we need to just be thankful for the show, thankful for the listeners, obviously thankful for for God that puts these conversations on our hearts. And if you feel the need to review or ask questions, you know we're open or inboxes are open. Finding Faith LosingSleep at gmocom. Also find us on Twitter at findingfapepotcom. I want to kind of message judgment individually. I'm at Pee Wee 31. We got Michelle at go pack go 411. And we have Wes at loafing it Loaf like the bread at loafing it on Twitter as well. So we thank you for listening. Thank you for taking the time for each episode that comes out. You know to take time out of your day to hear us talking to a microphone about some of the things we're going to do, we're going through in life and talking through the Bible and circumstances and context and all things we're trying to do as we kind of live life together.
Speaker 1:Definitely, pierre. You said it better than I did I could probably. I'm not going to say for sure that you did All right, we're too gemini, so we probably think alike is what.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking no, we do appreciate that and thank you for going along on this journey with us because it has been a journey. Pierre, you said we hit a milestone. I don't know you put that on Twitter. I can't remember exactly what it was. I said there was a milestone and I was like, really that many people Come on, man. So we do appreciate you sharing the show with other people and listening to it and going back and listening to those past episodes even that's important. We're not doing this for all the downloads or anything. I know I make fun of that stuff and I'm just being light. I'm being lighthearted a little bit on it. I'm not serious at all. I do appreciate it all because it is encouraging to us to know that hopefully people are listening and being encouraged themselves and we would love to hear from you if you are. But it was like 7,000 downloads or something 7,500 was our latest.
Speaker 2:So that's pretty impressive, given we're only 19 episodes in now. So what has just been? 18. And I mean, there's some episodes that have done really, really well and some that haven't done as well, and it doesn't matter, we're just talking through it and again, for each one you decide to listen to, we're very appreciative.
Speaker 3:Yes, because our whole goal was to reach one person. So if we've exceeded that, we're incredibly thankful, and I'm sure you do both of you do too but before we even start recording, I always pray to just let God speak through me. I'm certain both of you do as well and so we pray that our words aren't. You know, it's not of us that we're sharing our stories and what we feel about things, but ultimately we want God to be able to use us as vessels to reach people, for them to hear what they need to hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, up here, I would tell you that you may need to pray for me a little bit more, michelle, before the show kicks off. Just stop, it's an executive producer, I think. Oh, we do appreciate you all doing that, and not only do we pray for each other before the show starts, but I also pray for you and I also ask that you pray for us as we go through this journey together.